The folks on the other forum insisted that because Paul did X, that is the model for what pastors should do.
Paul didn't want to be a burden, so he got a job making tents. Is that the model for pastors to follow, too?
I pondered this because I found out today that my wife's employer was taking 10% of her salary for the church (her employer was also part of the church). Aside from believing that we are not commanded to tithe now, I find that to be unethical, unless she agreed to it, and I'm not sure how that was worked out. Language problems.
Anyway, my train of thought took me to the Paul issue, so I wondered what folks here thought.
By the way, my wife has a new job now. The owners at the last job didn't make good on their promises, so she found a better job that's closer to home.
Rogue, I'm currently doing a study on Paul's actual commands. He devotes entire chapters to spiritual gifts, but never commands us to go soul-winning. He commands spiritual growth through Scripture more than I had realized. He commands us to separate from pagan temples and from professing Christians who walk in sin, but not from Christians who will not obey our own rulers.
These "Pastors" are stealing what is is rightfully designated to be given to the weak. What is OWED to the WEAK so Paul immediately tells us to MODEL him. Of course when he was starving he needed to take from one church but we do that whether people are Pastors or just Laypeople. We supply the indigents needs, we are ALL commanded to do so. More-so a missionary who has less of a chance establishing a tent making business right off the bat.
Paul warns us about the wolves infiltrating the church coveting others silver and gold. Unfortunately, these ravenous wolves aka "Pastors" who steal from the week coveting silver and gold are to be expected.
ACTS 20
27For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,a which he bought with his own blood.b 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
32“Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
3I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. 34You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35 In everything I did, I showed you that BY THIS KIND OF HARD WORK, WE MUST HELP THE WEAK, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ”
Below you can read where it says to HONOR WIDOWS. Not PAY widows, not pay pastors. Just HONOR widows and HONOR PASTORS who after the HONOR, you see their works is what defines them as being due their HONOR.
We are to HONOR Elders, Pastors, especially those who teach and preach the word. NOT PAY THEM. HONOR THEM. NOT PAY DOUBLE. But doubly HONOR them. They've earned their due 2x honor for their teaching and preaching.. Just as a laborer is worthy of his wages. Both are equally worthy to receive their designated reward. If we were going to flip flop, I always wondered...why flip flop just one part and leave the other? If pastors are due wages, then the Laborer is due HONOR? How would the Laborer be worthy of DOUBLE HONOR if we are going to flip flop half of each of those two bible verses? It just makes no sense. It has NOTHING to do with money. BUT it doesn't omit money as something which can sustain any Missionaries life while he fulfil's Gods purpose. The Pastors? We have welfare programs. But we'd hope if they cannot even sustain their own selves and their family, that they'd not be trying to be Pastors in the first place. That usually shows a person who cannot rule their house well, a prerequisite. 1Tim 3:4
Honor Widows
5 Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers, 2 the older women as mothers, and the younger women as sisters, in all purity.
3 HONOR WIDOWS who are widows indeed; 4 but if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to [a]make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God. 5 Now she who is a widow indeed and who has been left alone, has fixed her hope on God and continues in entreaties and prayers night and day. 6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 [b]Prescribe these things as well, so that they may be above reproach. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
9 A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man, 10 having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the [c]saints’ feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work. 11 But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married, 12 thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous [d]pledge. 13 At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. 14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; 15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan. 16 If any woman who is a believer has dependent widows, she must assist them and the church must not be burdened, so that it may assist those who are widows indeed.
Concerning Elders
17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard [e]at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
(06-21-2016, 08:16 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]The folks on the other forum insisted that because Paul did X, that is the model for what pastors should do.
Paul didn't want to be a burden, so he got a job making tents. Is that the model for pastors to follow, too?
I pondered this because I found out today that my wife's employer was taking 10% of her salary for the church (her employer was also part of the church). Aside from believing that we are not commanded to tithe now, I find that to be unethical, unless she agreed to it, and I'm not sure how that was worked out. Language problems.
Anyway, my train of thought took me to the Paul issue, so I wondered what folks here thought.
By the way, my wife has a new job now. The owners at the last job didn't make good on their promises, so she found a better job that's closer to home.
I believe Paul is the premier example given to us from God after the ascension of Christ. There is very little doubt in my mind that the God knew that the early church would eventually become corrupt. Serving each other more than serving God.
I have several reasons to believe this. I might start another thread on the matter.
Needless to say, Paul was still a human being. He made mistakes. He wasn't perfect just like all of us are imperfect. However, I believe he is the closest you get to God's purpose, than anyone else in the Scriptures. Well, I do believe John the Beloved comes in a close second.
It was immoral for your wife's employer to automatically remove the "tithe". Regardless if she approved of it or not. Its not the job of an employer or local church to force compliance to their belief system. Those in Christ answer to Christ alone. There are no more apostles.
It amazes me how someone can quote the words of Paul as if they reference themselves. In fact, everyone does it. Paul commanded Timothy and Titus to chose between those that qualified for various positions in the local church that compassed an entire city. Paul would not have tolerated thousands of local churches in any metropolitan area. Yet, Now, we have just that. Thousand and thousands of local churches all claiming authority using Paul's words. Its a disgrace. No. Paul wouldn't have chosen hardly anyone that now claims authority through his words. It is evident they are nothing like Paul. Nothing like him.
Not that I don't believe there are gifted people among those in Christ. There are. However, they are not the ones in positions of authority. They are oppressed by those in authority. Just like Jesus, the apostles and etc have always been oppressed by those in authority.
Like Andrew said. The wolves have entered the flock a very LONG TIME ago. Its funny how people talk about the end times and then pretend they aren't part of the problem.
The system is wholly corrupt. The only thing that will straighten it out is the Return of our Master. Jesus Christ. Even so come Lord Jesus.
Good post PY! I should've added I believe it is possible that a paid Pastor may be unlearned and not know any different. I also believe it wouldn't take long for him to learn the scriptures to know he is sinning and stop. Work a regular job.
To Rogue Tomato- Not if that is even legal. It seems the IRS would get irate if they are loosing taxes on that 10% taken out likely, pre-tax. I would be concerned the IRS will come after your wife someday. And it isn't how tithing works, she owes no tithe but cheerful giving. And you cannot assume that she is going to be cheerful on those specific paydays, you know? I suspect you know very well but it is just is what it is. So don't mean to preach to the choir.