The Fighting Fundamental Forums

It takes sinful man to think that "Giving God your best" involves getting dressed up to go to church.....

Yet, this exactly how "saints of yesteryear" did it .....

I don't know about the "sinful" thing, but I bought into this at one time. I used to require my son to wear something other than jeans/shorts to attend church. My thinking was that he owned better clothes than some of the people attending in jeans/shorts, so he shouldn't compare his clothes to theirs. He had better, so he should dress better...giving God his best effort. He currently does not attend church. Nowadays, I'd be proud to sit next to him if he were in dirty shorts and a tattered t-shirt!

As for myself, nowadays I mostly wear pants...for two reasons. 1) the AC is too cold 2) it's good for the "no pants" crowd to see that a woman can wear pants without the church falling down

PS: Pastor doesn't have a problem with pants in the choir. I'm not a trendsetter. LOL

much has been made in recent years about people dressing up for church or making extra efforts to look.. and smell.. their best.... ..... i remember this subject coming up on the other other forum more than once.... ...i remember then believing and expressing anyone could dress for church any way they wanted to.... .....meaning they could wear a swimsuit or a tank top and spandex shorts if that;s what they thought was appropriate. ...and they don;t even have to bathe or brush their teeth as far as i am concerned.... people in the 1st century didn;t ....or at least not as often as we do in the 21st... 

but i also remember adamantly defending my right to dress up and wear nice clothing when i go to church and to show up washed and groomed.... teeth brushed and with all traces of last nights garlic laden dinner removed from my breath.... ...smelling in a way that will not be offensive to others in an open, non air conditioned church...... not heavily perfumed by any means but at the very least remembering that right guard goes under the left arm too....... ...(something a few too many people are beginning to forget in this enlightened age of dressing down) .. .. .. ..and wearing clothes that do not smell like i just came from the gym..... ...... i have not changed anything i believe about all that since then... .. and i don;t think i am likely too either..... ....

but that is just me.....  if someone else wants to dress down for church ... or not dress at all..... that is their decision... they can show up as sky clad and grunge covered as they choose..... i am usually in the special music enemble gallery so i don;t have to sit next to them..... but i might offer to get them a choir robe to cover up with if someone else doesn;t beat me to it.... ....if such an offer offends them then i will politely apologize and withdraw...... i;ll leave the rest of what to do about a situation like that to the pastor/priest.... or other church leadership...... 

but now as for them....... the pastor/priest and other church leadership..... . i do expect them to be dressed in a certain way appropriate to their position.... ..in my church that generally means a floor length robe with a mantle and a cap..... .....i won;t attend a church where a pastor or other leader thinks it ok to dress down.... ...i once visited a non traditonal church here with a friend where the pastor... or worship leader as they called him....... sat in a chair in front of us wearing a t-shirt, board shorts and tennis shoes with ankle socks....... ....i have absolutely no memory of his sermon lesson or anything else he talked about....  ... all i remember is he had some of the hairiest legs i had ever seen in a church..... in fact i think that was the first time i had ever seen hairy legs in church at all..... ..... ...it was a distraction to say the least.... even repulsive.... .... he might have been called the worship leader.. but seeing his manner of dress and appearance did not make me feel led to worship.. ... all i wanted to do was get out of there....... 

to specifically adress your point in the op that it takes sinful man to think dressing up for church is giving God our best.... i don;t think of it that way at all when i dress for church..... i don;t look at the manner of my dress as giving my best for God.... but as giving my best to others who might look to me as an example of a child of God..... or who might not want to be distracted from worship by something i am wearing they think is disrespectful to God or to the house of God..... to those i say dressing up for church and making an extra effort to present oneself well is a sin, i would say i see no virtue in showing up for church looking like you just crawled out of bed and threw on whatever dirty or mismatched garments you found lying around on the floor either.... .... point being that we are no less sinful either way...... .....

and while it is true that scripture does not command us to dress up for church.... it also doesn;t command us to dress down either ....  it does however say not to dress in a way to intentionally call attention to ourselves ... to make a show of our class or status... ..or show off our excessive wealth..... if we have it.... ..(pearls gold - costly array.... broided hair etc.)....... but people in the dress down group should remember that extreme dressing down, or dressing a little too casual in certain settings can call attention to oneself just as strongly as over dressing can.... ... and with equally undesirable consequences..... maybe even worse ones...... ..

(08-10-2017, 08:09 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]but now as for them....... the pastor/priest and other church leadership..... . i do expect them to be dressed in a certain way appropriate to their position.... ..in my church that generally means a floor length robe with a mantle and a cap..... .....i won;t attend a church where a pastor or other leader thinks it ok to dress down.... ...i once visited a non traditonal church here with a friend where the pastor... or worship leader as they called him....... sat in a chair in front of us wearing a t-shirt, board shorts and tennis shoes with ankle socks....... ....i have absolutely no memory of his sermon lesson or anything else he talked about....  ... all i remember is he had some of the hairiest legs i had ever seen in a church..... in fact i think that was the first time i had ever seen hairy legs in church at all..... ..... ...it was a distraction to say the least.... even repulsive.... .... he might have been called the worship leader.. but seeing his manner of dress and appearance did not make me feel led to worship.. ... all i wanted to do was get out of there....... 

I agree with most of your post as I pretty much always do....

This is where I disagree with you. "Leadership" in the local church has become much more than God planned. Leaders in the context of the NT church were to be humble servants. Not all presenting themselves as rulers. Which is pretty much what we have today. In fact, the word "ruler" in the KJV is one of the worst choices of words in the KJV. No doubt it was influence by the times in which the translators lived. God's servants are nothing but ordinary men/women who should be above all humble and modest. I don't expect a certain code of "dress" for them. In fact, John the Baptist had authority. More authority than anyone today and people hated the way he dressed. Jesus, Himself, was a modest, humble servant. He dressed in modest apparel and conducted himself as an average man among humanity.

Quote:to specifically adress your point in the op that it takes sinful man to think dressing up for church is giving God our best.... i don;t think of it that way at all when i dress for church.....  i don;t look at the manner of my dress as giving my best for God.... but as giving my best to others who might look to me as an example of a child of God..... or who might not want to be distracted from worship by something i am wearing they think is disrespectful to God or to the house of God..... to those i say dressing up for church and making an extra effort to present oneself well is a sin, i would say i see no virtue in showing up for church looking like you just crawled out of bed and threw on whatever dirty or mismatched garments you found lying around on the floor either.... .... point being that we are no less sinful either way...... .....

There has long been a tradition in Colonial America of "dressing up" to meet "God" at the local assembly. Some have traced it roots to early New England pilgrims. I don't know about the source. I do know its has been around for a very long time. It has long found its place in local fundamental churches. It is expect that people show up and be their "best" to present themselves before God. They genuinely believe they are running a small local copy of the "Temple" Solomon built. They have forgotten that God eternally planned to make the heart of man His TRUE temple. Only in a heart open and regenerated by God's love can truly house the Spirit of God. Not the heavens. Not any temple made with hands. Only the heart made by God's own Hands.

Quote:and while it is true that scripture does not command us to dress up for church.... it also doesn;t command us to dress down either ....  it does however say not to dress in a way to intentionally call attention to ourselves ... to make a show of our class or status... ..or show off our excessive wealth..... if we have it.... ..(pearls gold - costly array.... broided hair etc.)....... but people in the dress down group should remember that extreme dressing down, or dressing a little too casual in certain settings can call attention to oneself just as strongly as over dressing can.... ... and with equally undesirable consequences..... maybe even worse ones...... ..

I agree with you to a larger extent. However, there are no examples of any rich people, adorned in expensive apparel having any lasting place among the disciples. They condescended to men of lower estate.

Rom 12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 

I'm not trying to condemn those who want to "dress up" when they assemble with others. Just the attitude that often goes along with trying to impress others. "Dressing up" doesn't get anyone, anywhere with God.

praise_yeshua Wrote:I agree with most of your post as I pretty much always do....

This is where I disagree with you. "Leadership" in the local church has become much more than God planned. Leaders in the context of the NT church were to be humble servants. Not all presenting themselves as rulers. Which is pretty much what we have today. In fact, the word "ruler" in the KJV is one of the worst choices of words in the KJV. No doubt it was influence by the times in which the translators lived. God's servants are nothing but ordinary men/women who should be above all humble and modest. I don't expect a certain code of "dress" for them. In fact, John the Baptist had authority. More authority than anyone today and people hated the way he dressed. Jesus, Himself, was a modest, humble servant. He dressed in modest apparel and conducted himself as an average man among humanity.

according to scripture... leaders among christian groups and others before them who were followers of God - were supposed to be servants first and foremost... not rulers or "lords" like the leaders of others groups were considered......  and it;s in that context i called them leaders here.... .. i have never considered church leadership to be rulers at all.. but shepherds who were in reality servants of God - the owner of the flock...

but even a servant often wears clothing or even a certain uniform that identifies who he is and what his role is within a group or organization.....i believe it should be the same with church leaders (or shepherds/servants as scripture describes them)....... their clothing should be unique in a way that identifies them... but also humble and dignified - and not something that will create a spectacle ..(like hairy legs extending from a pair of tacky and less than modest shorts....)

Quote:praise_yeshua

There has long been a tradition in Colonial America of "dressing up" to meet "God" at the local assembly. Some have traced it roots to early New England pilgrims. I don't know about the source. I do know its has been around for a very long time. It has long found its place in local fundamental churches. It is expect that people show up and be their "best" to present themselves before God. They genuinely believe they are running a small local copy of the "Temple" Solomon built. They have forgotten that God eternally planned to make the heart of man His TRUE temple. Only in a heart open and regenerated by God's love can truly house the Spirit of God. Not the heavens. Not any temple made with hands. Only the heart made by God's own Hands.  

long before the days of colonial america it was recognized that appropriate manners often come with appropriate apparell.....  dress somebody like a clown and likely as not that is how he will act..... dress him like he is ready for a day at the beach or the ballpark and it;s doubtful he will enter the church or more importantly the pulpit in the frame of mind for worship or the service of God.... ...in my view this is one reason the services in so many churches nowdays have taken on an atmosphere more fit for a circus or a rock concert than a church...  ..

i know..... among my fellow millenials... even those who go to church.....  i am definitely in the minority with that view.... most of them don;t know the difference in a church service and a rock concert anyway..... they think the inspiration and spiritual guidance gained from one is just as important and valid as the other...... and trying to convince them otherwise is worse than an exercise in futility...... it can actually get you ostracized and labelled a far right radical...... 

but yes.. i agree with you....  only the regenerated heart can truly house the Spirit of God..... ..but as for me personally i am more inclined to believe the heart of any particlar regenerated person is in a state fit for worship when i see them taking at least some kind of effort to prepare themselves both in mind, body and apparell for church and worship..... than when i see them looking like they are ready to crack open a beer at the ball game or pick up a surfboard and paddle to the breaks..... ... and remember.. i am one of those who defended manners of dress that hyperfundies called immodest or unscriptural in any kind of setting.... ... i strongly believe choice of apparel should match the occasion..... and be acceptable or not according to such.......

Quote:praise_yeshua

I agree with you to a larger extent. However, there are no examples of any rich people, adorned in expensive apparel having any lasting place among the disciples. They condescended to men of lower estate.  

Rom 12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 

I'm not trying to condemn those who want to "dress up" when they assemble with others. Just the attitude that often goes along with trying to impress others. "Dressing up" doesn't get anyone, anywhere with God.

true.... dressing up doesn;t get anyone anywhere with God..... but does intentionally dressing down to look the pauper when the real person could do a little better get anyone anywhere?.... ...i believe a person should be who they are....  dressed appropriately for the circumstances to be sure, but not pretending to be someone else or something else..... ..john the baptist dressed as he did because he lived off the land and made his way in the wilderness....  his clothing was appropriate to who he was but also reflected what materials for clothing were available to him.... ....if people of his own time thought he looked out of place knowing that he came straight from the wilderness... what would they have thought of  a preacher today stepping out of a modern car he drove to church from a contemporary home... then prepared to take to the pulpit or worship leader post dressed in surfboard shorts a t-shirt and tennis shoes......  when that same person... if he holds a secular job... might go to the office wearing a suit or at least a button up shirt and a tie?......  ..to me the modern phenomenon of dressing down for church is little more than a fad...done for the purpose of bragging about ones humility or making a personal statement in no less a way than over dressing for church would be bragging about ones wealth.. .... ..... hopefully it;s a fad which is shortlived.....  

(08-13-2017, 05:36 AM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]according to scripture... leaders among christian groups and others before them who were followers of God - were supposed to be servants first and foremost... not rulers or "lords" like the leaders of others groups were considered......  and it;s in that context i called them leaders here.... .. i have never considered church leadership to be rulers at all.. but shepherds who were in reality servants of God - the owner of the flock...

but even a servant often wears clothing or even a certain uniform that identifies who he is and what his role is within a group or organization.....i believe it should be the same with church leaders (or shepherds/servants as scripture describes them)....... their clothing should be unique in a way that identifies them... but also humble and dignified - and not something that will create a spectacle ..(like hairy legs extending from a pair of tacky and less than modest shorts....)

I understand your position. I just don't see that presented in the Scriptures. Historically, what you say is true in the context of human governance. I just don't see the same presented among the disciples and leadership.

I would argue today, that there really isn't anything such as "leadership" as presented in the context the NT Scriptures..... and I'm kinda starting to believe that God wanted it that way..... That is a different subject. A good subject that might deserve its own thread.

Quote:long before the days of colonial america it was recognized that appropriate manners often come with appropriate apparell.....  dress somebody like a clown and likely as not that is how he will act..... dress him like he is ready for a day at the beach or the ballpark and it;s doubtful he will enter the church or more importantly the pulpit in the frame of mind for worship or the service of God.... ...in my view this is one reason the services in so many churches nowdays have taken on an atmosphere more fit for a circus or a rock concert than a church...  ..

That is still true of many who "dress up" to go to church. They might not play rock music music but they often act like they are a rock concert.

Quote:i know..... among my fellow millenials... even those who go to church.....  i am definitely in the minority with that view.... most of them don;t know the difference in a church service and a rock concert anyway..... they think the inspiration and spiritual guidance gained from one is just as important and valid as the other...... and trying to convince them otherwise is worse than an exercise in futility...... it can actually get you ostracized and labelled a far right radical...... 

True. I agree completely. Its the dilemma I've struggled with for a very long time. I haven't been a fundamentalist for close to 25 years but I don't "fit in" with the anti-fundamentalist either. They seemingly have NO standards whatsoever and are so free they forget they're still part of this world and have to deal honestly with their fellowman as such.

Quote:but yes.. i agree with you....  only the regenerated heart can truly house the Spirit of God..... ..but as for me personally i am more inclined to believe the heart of any particlar regenerated person is in a state fit for worship when i see them taking at least some kind of effort to prepare themselves both in mind, body and apparell for church and worship..... than when i see them looking like they are ready to crack open a beer at the ball game or pick up a surfboard and paddle to the breaks..... ... and remember.. i am one of those who defended manners of dress that hyperfundies called immodest or unscriptural in any kind of setting.... ... i strongly believe choice of apparel should match the occasion..... and be acceptable or not according to such.......

I mostly agree with what you're saying. Formal attendance in a local assembly should be respectful and in "order". Just like Paul taught those at Corinth who had pretty much turned their services into a "free-for-all" or "anything goes" setting. However, I don't see that being associated with attire. I can see the desire to include it. I have the same desire to some degree. I'm just not trying to make my preference as standard for all. Not saying you're doing that. I don't believe you are.

As long as its decent and in order. I'm "OK" with it even if I disagree with it and wouldn't do it myself.

The quality of disagreeing with someone and it still not affecting their relationship is very lacking in society.... regardless of whether that disagreement is religious, political or etc based.

Quote:true.... dressing up doesn;t get anyone anywhere with God..... but does intentionally dressing down to look the pauper when the real person could do a little better get anyone anywhere?.... ..

Point well said! I agree completely. "Pretense" in such things aren't helpful at all.

Quote:i believe a person should be who they are....  dressed appropriately for the circumstances to be sure, but not pretending to be someone else or something else..... ..john the baptist dressed as he did because he lived off the land and made his way in the wilderness....  his clothing was appropriate to who he was but also reflected what materials for clothing were available to him.... ....if people of his own time thought he looked out of place knowing that he came straight from the wilderness... what would they have thought of  a preacher today stepping out of a modern car he drove to church from a contemporary home... then prepared to take to the pulpit or worship leader post dressed in surfboard shorts a t-shirt and tennis shoes......  when that same person... if he holds a secular job... might go to the office wearing a suit or at least a button up shirt and a tie?......  ..to me the modern phenomenon of dressing down for church is little more than a fad...done for the purpose of bragging about ones humility or making a personal statement in no less a way than over dressing for church would be bragging about ones wealth.. .... ..... hopefully it;s a fad which is shortlived.....  

Well said. I see both as being problematic. You've always been talented as seeing both sides of an issue. Thanks for sharing!!!

(09-07-2017, 12:02 AM)le nf Wrote: [ -> ]Welcome, RafaelRis.  I must admit that I don't understand your bingo views post in light of the context of the thread.  Are you referencing clothing/appearance or something else?

I just try to be a good person and a good role model.

(09-06-2017, 06:07 AM)RafaelRis Wrote: [ -> ]I just try to be a good person and a good role model.

Define good person?

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome, RafaelRis. I must admit that I don't understand your post in light of the context of the thread. Are you referencing clothing/appearance or something else?