The Fighting Fundamental Forums

I got in recent argument with a couple of people over what they perceived as the successes of the early church. Don't get me wrong. They has some success but not nearly as much as some would like to appeal. I could mention dozens of issues and I might but here are a few. 


1. Jesus broke down the wall of separation of Jew and Gentile at the cross. However, it took somewhere around a decade or more before the church at Jerusalem would even begin to consider embrace Gentile converts. 

2. Peter was practically forced to deal with his prejudice he received via vain traditions of his father BEFORE he would change and somewhat embrace Gentiles into the fold. We also know that Peter would act differently before Jews and Gentiles. In other words, Peter had "respect of persons" in his religion. 

Which is ironic somewhat to mention how the writer of "James" talked about how NOT to show respect of persons but didn't embrace a single Gentile in his writings.....

3. The apostles largely centered in Jerusalem forgot about being servants. They established an hierarchy that benefited them personally. Insomuch as they became complacent. They largely refused to deal with the issues between Gentiles and Jews for almost a decade after Gentiles began to be accepted among them. A decade. Just like good modern day "pastors"..... don't "rock the boat" until we have to......

And, 190 decades after Philip baptized an Ethiopian eunuch there were still Baptist preachers in the United States who did not believe black men had souls.   Nor anyone else whose ancestory came from the African continent for that matter.

I remember hearing that belief expressed more than once when I was young. 

Even now in some parts of the country many churches are separated by race. 

And it wasn't all that long ago when a church in Texas - famous among Fundamental Baptists and once pastored by a well known IFB preacher, suffered a devastating church split because a black man who had recently been saved, was allowed to come to a church service and sit in the congregation.

So with a few changes in race and demographics it would seem the failures of the early church remain the failures of the current church as well.

Rocking the boat might seem necessary when you are stuck on a reef and with a desperate need to get underway.  But it won't prevent you from being tossed out of that boat by those who don't want to see it rocked - even if your efforts are successful and they benefit from it in the end.

James just barely rocked the boat compared to some. And yet look at how many theologians, even today, believed the Epistle of James should not have been included in the Scriptures.   Martin Luther himself believed it should be excluded. I've come across a few wealthy Christians here and there, who agreed with him.

(01-14-2019, 09:19 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]I got in recent argument with a couple of people over what they perceived as the successes of the early church. Don't get me wrong. They has some success but not nearly as much as some would like to appeal. I could mention dozens of issues and I might but here are a few. 


1. Jesus broke down the wall of separation of Jew and Gentile at the cross. However, it took somewhere around a decade or more before the church at Jerusalem would even begin to consider embrace Gentile converts. 

2. Peter was practically forced to deal with his prejudice he received via vain traditions of his father BEFORE he would change and somewhat embrace Gentiles into the fold. We also know that Peter would act differently before Jews and Gentiles. In other words, Peter had "respect of persons" in his religion. 

Which is ironic somewhat to mention how the writer of "James" talked about how NOT to show respect of persons but didn't embrace a single Gentile in his writings.....

3. The apostles largely centered in Jerusalem forgot about being servants. They established an hierarchy that benefited them personally. Insomuch as they became complacent. They largely refused to deal with the issues between Gentiles and Jews for almost a decade after Gentiles began to be accepted among them. A decade. Just like good modern day "pastors"..... don't "rock the boat" until we have to......

were these people you argued with the kind who claim the early church did everything right while we in the modern age are doing everything wrong?........ ... i get really tired of listening to claims like that.....  especially when their whole premise is to attack any church larger than a kitchen table and anyone who attends the service dressed better than they would while lounging around their house.... all under the guise of defending church groups which.. for whatever reason....  have nothing more than a few members around the kitchen table and tennis shoes with shorts.... or who started off that way and never progressed any further........... ...

if you think about it.... .. it;s a kind of religious socialism.... to believe that in order for no one to feel bad that someone else might have better things to wear or a better building to worship God in that we all have to reduce ourselves to the lowest common denominator...... ...ditch the modern church building and put on the rags .....pretending to be poor..... or from the streets ..whether we really are or not... in an attempt to show the world how humble we are....... . .... churches like that have become like crabs in a bucket..... . pulling anyone else down who even appears to be climibing toward the rim..... ..but only on sunday morning... . not at any other time or in any other part of life... .... only when people see them going to church or meeting for worship..... the rest of the time or when they go to work in the carpeted office they are well dressed.... ..so it;s a false socialism...... ....and a false humility...  .....

Jesus did tell the rich young ruler to give everything he owned to the poor... including his fine attir..... and to follow Him..... but that was because the rich young rulers riches were what he really loved the most.... .... not the thought of true christian service or living a true christian life..... his riches were what made him what he was ...he was very impressed with himself and wanted simply a validation of his self appointed holiness in reply from Jesus..... ..not a real answer to his question..... the answer he got dissapointed him...... Jesus knew from the start the rich young ruler would not do what He told him......      .....but had that rich young ruler simply exchanged his nice clothes for rags while in the presence of Jesus or while working in His service.... then went back to his palace and got back into his finer attire all the rest of the time... ..like many of the ragamuffin church or grunge attire only church members today do........ ..  would he have still been following the commands of Jesus?..... ..would his christian service and christian life really have been one of humility?.......  could he have put on a pretense of poverty and humility on sunday morning only and pulled it off? ..... ...maybe in front of the apostles... .... but certainly not in front of Jesus..... .......

i know what i am trying to say just not sure how to say it.... .... i think most people miss the point in these kinds of discussions...... putting on shorts and a t-shirt.... ... tennis shoes and knee socks.... wearing your hat backwards to church...... in a pretense of being common and "as you are" in your worship of God... ... or.... meeting with people of other races on sunday morning while shunning them all the rest of the week ..... .. is no less hypocritical than dressing in your finest on sunday and going to a large segregated church for the purpose of showing everybody else how much more holy than them you are.....or believing that extra effort to dress well will save you.... .... 

fact is.... true servants of God can emerge from both of those kinds of churches and services..... no matter how hypocritical the leadership..... .. .just like they can emerge from churches than might have all those outward appearances but which are doing things for all the right reasons...... and for which type of clothing or size of the building is just circumstantial..... ...not intended to make a statement either way........ ...true servants of God can even emerge from a catholic church.... .. service to God has nothing to do with the cost of ones clothing or the structure they choose to worship in...or even the demonination they are a part of.... . .....it;s a personal thing between each person and God.... the Word of God is powerful.... ..and where ever the Word of God is preached... studied...  or presented. ... even by hypocrits or nonbelievers..... it will have it;s affect and the Holy Spirit will draw people who hear it to the truth..... . ........ it happened in the early church despite it;s failures.... . and it happens in the modern churches as well in spite of theirs.............