The Fighting Fundamental Forums

I know what I believe the Scriptures teach. I believe they're very clear. I believe that many people do not understand what Paul meant when he wrote...

1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
1Ti 2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

I've seen all types of interpretations given for these verses but the explanation is rather simple. Usually a person's interpretation depends upon what they believe about "women preaching"..... not what the verse actually relate/say. I don't have an agenda. All I care about is the Truth. Mature adults go where the information leads them. Well..... sometimes... Smile

There is a difference between a single and married women. Regardless of your agenda, you can't get past this fact. Here, Paul is dealing with married women. The appeal is to Eve the "mother of all living" and "child birth" in verse 15. The context is clear.

1. If a women chooses to marry, then she has chosen for herself a subservient role in the family.

The head of every women is the man. The head of the family is the "man of the house". In such a role, the "wife" is not to speak of herself. (In like manner, the servant to Christ is not to speak of themselves, though they be the "head of the house")... She is to focus upon her role in the family. As such, these verses apply to those that would act Godly in marriage.

The single women has no such restrictions. In fact, read the words of Paul to Corinth.....

1Co 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
1Co 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Married women are bound to their husband. As is the husband to the wife. They should speak the same things. They should work together.

1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1Co 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Can a women preach? Absolutely. However, if she is married, she should display and live a subservient role with her husband as the "mouthpiece" of the family.

What about "authority over another man"? In context, this is speaking of a married women displaying an authoritative position that she does not have. Single women.... do not carry such restrictions. If they do, then..... please share the Scripture for such...

i have been wanting to reply to this thread ever since it came out... ..i;m just not entirely sure how.... ......i have some fairly strong opinions about paul... ..one of those is that paul had strong opinions of his own.... opinions that frequently came out in his writing... and in the opinion of many... not just me.... paul often went beyond teaching on the precepts of God and into expounding on his own preferences........ ....

at least he was aware of it.... as in most every time he offers a preference of his own he says as much...... rather than saying "God commands" that a women remain silent in the church, in the scripture quoted above... ...... paul says... "i do not permit..." .... ...and there are many other instances in scripture where he does similar things with his teachings.... ... for instance when he said it is good for man to never touch a woman... (ie.. remain single and never marry....)....that is not a command of God... it is pauls own preference and opinion.......

the reason for all this is... i believe... related to his background prior to being saved.... .. before his conversion paul was an official persecutor of christians.... ...his harsh and authoritative personality served him well in that endeavor ..... .. but needed to be tempered as a christian minister.... ....it was obvious he struggled with it just as he struggled with the unknown "thorn in the flesh" he spoke of from time to time..... ....and i believe he also struggled with having a very negative attitude towards women.... .. why?..... i don;t know.... probably something left over from the work he did prior to being saved.......... but it comes out in his writing all the time..... to the point that he even appears to contradict other writers of scripture.... ..and even occasionally appears to contradict the very words of Christ.... ....it;s for that reason some people believe portions of pauls writing should not have been considered inspired and should have been left with the apocrypha and other writings the council of nicaea rejected.....

personally i don;t see contradictions betwee what paul wrote and what Jesus said.... and it does not bother me that he struggled with residue from his previous life after being saved.... we all suffer from the sins we were emersed in before our salvation.... ........ but i do see pauls opinions and attitudes coming through in ways other writers of scripture managed to avoid.... ...

but anyway.... ..a lot people get very angry at me any time we talk about paul... .. it;s why i avoid that as much as possible these days.... .....most don;t understand how i can believe his writing is inspired scripture yet still see some of it as his opinions rather than commands of God..... it;s simple... .. we are all human... ..and escaping ourselves is sometimes the hardest thing we have to do.. ..... even after being saved... . it is important that we know even great "men of God" sometimes have opinions not necessarily endorsed by God... ..not that those things aren;t beneficial to some christians.... the ones able to accept and use those teaching.....but if we rush to make doctrine and dogma out of a preachers opinions we fall into error.... .. and often end up doing more harm than good to those we wish to serve... ..

Good points.

Good hermeneutics start with seeing things for what they are. I've said this for many many years and I often end up being called an heretic over it....... but Paul never claimed to have been adding to the Scriptures. He would have never made such a claim. In fact, he did the opposite. Near the end of his life Paul said....

Act 26:22 To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:

What really matters is.... is what Paul taught and preached compatible with the Scriptures? Is what he taught/or the apostles taught, compatible or compliment the Scriptures? The vast majority of the time the answer is yes. Some of the time, the answer is very clearly NO. It is always best to obey God rather than any man.

Paul shared his opinion and recognized it as his own opinion. He even gave this disclaimer......

1Co 7:17 Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.

This includes WOMEN. All women.

Men often enjoy oppressing women and women often enjoy let them know about it......

Truth is.....as Paul wrote.....

1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

I enjoy pointing out that Jesus Christ came forth from the "seed" of the women. In his suffering, our Lord took upon humanity through the seed of the women. I'm rather certain some men would love to change that fact.....

i don;t believe paul saw himself as adding to the scriptures.... ..and if he did... he certainly would not have admitted it.... to do so would have been to condemn himself.... yet his continuous defense of himself on that account indicates he was aware that if his contemporaries weren;t already accusing him of it, his words would and could nonetheless be taken as adding to scripture.... ...

but in his defense i think it;s commendable that he did at least qualify his opinions as his opinions when ever he gave them... ... that;s one thing that sets him apart from modern fundamentalists and cult leaders... (who like to claim paul was the first fundamentalist)...and who make no attempt at all to draw a line between where the scripture ends and their own pontificating begins.... ...sadly many of the people caught up in those cults and churches don;t know where that line is either, or even know if such a line exists.... .to them the words of their preacher are no different than the words of God...

and this is why i personally believe God allowed pauls writings to pass over into scripture just as they are.... because they clearly do show... to anyone looking closely.... how to delineate between what is clearly a command of God and what is merely a preachers opinion..... ..not that preachers opinions can;t be useful.... they can be and are to many people who face situations outside the norm and might need to go an extra mile in their own spiritual walk or exercise extra care in their own personal convictions... ....but those kinds of opinions and that kind of advise can not be the one shoe fits all for everybody....one single standard for everyone, and an extra biblical standard at that.... .. that;s the other part of the equation that gives birth to cults.... ..first, a man whose word is taken above that of the Word of God... and secondly, his man made rules everyone is subject to or risk being outcast if they resist.... ..... ...

and you are correct.... most men do enjoy oppressing women.... and that included paul.... and it;s not so much that women enjoy letting men know they feel oppressed... but more of a realization that if they don;t make it known they object to the oppression, then they risk being labelled as a willing participant in it... ...and once they are seen as not objecting...and even in some cases not violently resisting... then men have all too often taken it as liberty to do whatever they want and increase the oppression all the more....

i guess what i;m really trying to say here is that the things paul wrote did nothing to improve the relationship between men and women in the christian world..... and that is unfortunate.... .because he was in a position where he could have..... ...a strong christian family has a husband and wife both of whom are strong and share responsibilities... that includes responsibilities of leadership... ..and dividing responsibilities where necessary depending on which one has the greater strength or ability in any given area.......... ...

it;s the pagan world and the cults of the far east where a mans importance is often judged by how subservient and brow beaten his wife is. ..regardless of whether she might be smarter or more capable than him or not.... .. ...and there are those in the judeo-christian world who blame paul for trying to introduce that mindset into christian churches on purpose... .......i don;t agree with them... i don;t believe he did that deliberately... ...i think something happened to him as a servant of rome that had enormous and even to some extent detrimental influence on the rest of his life... ... to me it appears obvious in his writings he struggled with that within himself too... .... i think he knew his attitude towards women needed improvement.... ..even if he did try to justify it with his comparison of who bit into the forbidden fruit first...

fact is.... there are men in the christian world.... just like the ones in the far east and pagan world.... who look for a wife who will be subservient...unconditionally obedient... and who will never once disagree with them or argue with anything they say.... . the fact they so frequently find them does not speak well for how some christian families raise their daughters..... .but i will leave it there... i started this at 3 am and already wrote too much.. like i always do.... i will try to fix the typos and dislexic mistakes later...

...addendum to above post.... i had to get permission to write about this first and even then there are a few restrictions....

but anyway.... ..in your first post you wrote this......

Quote:1. If a women chooses to marry, then she has chosen for herself a subservient role in the family.

The head of every women is the man. The head of the family is the "man of the house". In such a role, the "wife" is not to speak of herself. (In like manner, the servant to Christ is not to speak of themselves, though they be the "head of the house")... She is to focus upon her role in the family. As such, these verses apply to those that would act Godly in marriage.

but is that true in every marriage?... .... is there no allowance for marriages where there might be agreements in advance about who will actually serve as head of the "household" and whether there will be any real subservience of one to another?.....

the reason i ask is someone very close to me got married a few years ago.... but already had both property in her name and a very successful career... the person she married is a few years younger than she is and doesn;t earn nearly as much.... and does not manage his own career in the same sense she does.... they bought property together in another state... but currently reside in the same property she owns here, and which she owned prior to their marriage.... along with other members of her family and long time friends who rent from her... (it;s a pretty big place).... it could be said that all of them... together... extended family and friends alike... are, in a sense, one big family living under one roof....

however.... he is not the head of the household by any means.... .he is not even named on the property title..... she continues to make all decisions about the place they live in, and what the rules of that house will be, just as she did before they married.... with no children yet, the only person he currently has any say over is himself....

the reason i mention all this is that there are some on both sides of their families.... who are all christian and some who could even be described as fundamentalist.... who think this is all just horribly wrong..... ...they believe... especially the ones on his side of the family... that once they married she should have relinquished everything... even control of her career... over to him.... and that he should currently make decisions concerning all their property, even the property she owned prior to their marriage... including decisions about what the rules there should be and who gets to live there....... ..in other words they believe her marriage to him should follow the strictest interpretation of what paul wrote concerning marriage... ....

needless to say they don;t listen to those family members... ..and have even warned them that further attempts to advise on this matter or to interfere will result in their being cut off from contact....

but do you know of anything in scripture that would forbid such a premarital agreement?......

and don;t worry... you won;t get cut off from contact if we disagree......

(03-24-2021, 08:09 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]...addendum to above post.... i had to get permission to write about this first and even then there are a few restrictions....

but anyway.... ..in your first post you wrote this......

Quote:1. If a women chooses to marry, then she has chosen for herself a subservient role in the family.

The head of every women is the man. The head of the family is the "man of the house". In such a role, the "wife" is not to speak of herself. (In like manner, the servant to Christ is not to speak of themselves, though they be the "head of the house")... She is to focus upon her role in the family. As such, these verses apply to those that would act Godly in marriage.

but is that true in every marriage?... .... is there no allowance for marriages where there might be agreements in advance about who will actually serve as head of the "household" and whether there will be any real subservience of one to another?.....

the reason i ask is someone very close to me got married a few years ago.... but already had both property in her name and a very successful career... the person she married is a few years younger than she is and doesn;t earn nearly as much.... and does not manage his own career in the same sense she does.... they bought property together in another state... but currently reside in the same property she owns here, and which she owned prior to their marriage.... along with other members of her family and long time friends who rent from her... (it;s a pretty big place).... it could be said that all of them... together... extended family and friends alike... are, in a sense, one big family living under one roof....

however.... he is not the head of the household by any means.... .he is not even named on the property title..... she continues to make all decisions about the place they live in, and what the rules of that house will be, just as she did before they married.... with no children yet, the only person he currently has any say over is himself....

the reason i mention all this is that there are some on both sides of their families.... who are all christian and some who could even be described as fundamentalist.... who think this is all just horribly wrong..... ...they believe... especially the ones on his side of the family... that once they married she should have relinquished everything... even control of her career... over to him.... and that he should currently make decisions concerning all their property, even the property she owned prior to their marriage... including decisions about what the rules there should be and who gets to live there....... ..in other words they believe her marriage to him should follow the strictest interpretation of what paul wrote concerning marriage... ....

needless to say they don;t listen to those family members... ..and have even warned them that further attempts to advise on this matter or to interfere will result in their being cut off from contact....

but do you know of anything in scripture that would forbid such a premarital agreement?......

and don;t worry... you won;t get cut off from contact if we disagree......

Those are great questions and I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been earlier.... and we'd all be in terrible shape if our Lord Jesus abandoned us when we disagree with Him.....(Which happens very often). We should be free disagree and still have the understanding that we are together in this with our Lord Jesus Christ. Love you sis. We are good. No issues at all......

There is a reason that Paul used the disclaimer

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

This is a very complicated issue and it is impossible to sum up the issue with just a few words to try and guide everyone. Which is one of the failings of the law in general. There is no law/rule that can be set forth as an absolute precedent that is not ultimately judged according to complicated circumstances. Which is one of the reasons every law is established by an Judge. What the Judge says actually matters. Not the law/rule itself.

I give my opinion and my interpretation of the issue at hand....

Sometimes I disagree with my wife. In fact, we had a heated disagreement this very morning. So much so that we decided to not talk about it and let it "settle down" so we could actually make a good decision. However, there are times when we just can't agree at all. Ultimately, there has to be a winner in the husband/wife relationship. That is the husband. In my life with my wife, I've only had to remind my wife of this fact once or twice. I've only had to do this once or twice in our relationship. Most of the time.... we "work it out".

Which is where I see the issue being with your scenarios above. If the husband and wife agree for the wife to lead on somethings, then they are in agreement. As such, there are nothing Biblically wrong with such. The following verses seem to sum up what I'm trying to say better than I can.....

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

You can NOT have a Biblical marriage without BOTH of these verses. To every husband, I would ask the question.....When will you start treating your wife like Christ Jesus treats YOU! You are HER servant. You must serve one another.

There is nothing wrong with a prenup if the parties agree. There is nothing wrong with a wife leading or owning anything as long as the husband and wife agree. This IS a working/Biblical relationship...... How many times does Christ let us lead in our relationship? How many times does Christ let us FREELY operate in His name? We know each other.

Christ in US....

Which is the same scenerio when a husband and wife work together. However, Christ is going to win in any disagreement... Smile

I believe we know that He likes to work things out before it turns into an full heated argument.... Smile

Some believe, and I agree with them, that Paul was probably married at one time or another. That he was either a widower or his wife abandoned him because of the Gospel. Which issue Paul dealt with in....

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

One last thing I'd like to say to every husband out there.....
There is NOTHING wrong with being "hen-pecked"..... IF you're being pecked by the right hen.

There are plenty of men out there not worth following. There are plenty of women out there trying to RULE IT ALL.... neither situation will ever work and neither are Biblical.

If you're out there and stuck in a bad dysfunctional marriage.... your solution is simple. You read real the solution in the next verse.....

1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

If you're in a "Christian" marriage and having problems..... There is a clear solution as well..... "SUBMIT" to one another.

I hope this helps!

the family of the husband i mentioned above is strongly fundamentalist.... and made up mostly of career military men... .and their wives are all stay at home mothers.... ....i think that is awesome if it;s what someone wants... and they think it all the way through very clearly, before agreeing to get married.... ... ..one of the things that upset his family from the start was that their son was marrying a woman who was already locked into a career and very successful at it.... .they envisioned him following the family traditions and marrying someone dedicated to being a mother and homemaker.....

that was another thing that upset them.... .. this particular husband and wife have no plans to have children.... for a number of reasons his family does not understand, they both say they are happy to not have children.....

so, though their marriage does not follow any traditional biblical model... the only problems they have ever had in their marriage were all caused by in-laws attempting to interfere and run their marriage for them from thousands of miles away... .and their weapon of choice in this was guilt..... the power of a fundamentalist family guilt trip is great.... he briefly gave in to it but since then has resisted and followed another biblical command for marriage which says... "what therefor God has joined together.. let not man put asunder... " mark 10-4.. ..which they take to mean "allow no outside interference.... even from a mother, father.. or any other relative..."....

he does like to make jokes sometimes like... he wears the pants in the family... but his wife tells him which pants to wear.... i;m sure his family cringes when they hear that... but now days they cringe silently .....

The Fighting Fundamental Forums

praise_yeshua

aleshanee

praise_yeshua

aleshanee

aleshanee

praise_yeshua

aleshanee