The Fighting Fundamental Forums - Want to feel good about yourself?

The false religion that exists in this modern society centers arounds "feeling good about yourself". Just pay attention. Follow a person's beliefs and theology to their end and you will find that mankind is in a endless quest to "feel good about himself"....

However, that IS NOT what the Gospel/Truth of God teaches us.

We are to DENY OURSELVES....

The Gospel isn't about feeling good about ourselves. It is ALL about feeling good about God.

So tell me, how do you feel about God? Tell me of your love for God without thinking of yourself!

... then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me..... ...for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it..... ...for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?....... ....for the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works..... matthew 16; 24-27

this is one reason i have a problem with the other thread where you listed the things Jesus means to you and listed health and comfort among them...... i might be misunderstanding how you use these words and especially the words "feel" and "feeling"..... because i don;t see that scripture telling us if we would follow Jesus we must deny ourselves, as having anything at all to do with feelings...... it;s about obedience and service to Jesus rather than service to ourselves...... and being willing to do whatever is necessary to serve Jesus .... ... doing what He tells us to do and going where He tells us to go.. ..leaving our homes and jobs behind if need be.... and giving up the pursuit of our own success and concern over material things..... perhaps even at the expense of our own health and comfort....

Jesus said as much to people who indicated they wanted to follow Him....

.....and a certain scribe came, and said unto him, "Master, i will follow thee whithersoever thou goest".... and Jesus saith unto him, "the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head".... matthew 8; 19-20

following Jesus could also put us in situations that compromise our health or safety ... even our lives....... .not that it always will... but we should be willing to face that kind of danger and peril if we are truly to follow Jesus.... ..Jesus knew His followers would be persecuted... just as He was persecuted.... ....and beginning with the disciples and on through history... those who went forward to serve Christ were persecuted..... frequently imprisoned... chained in conditions that ruined their health.... ..tortured... . and even killed for no other reason than the fact they were preaching the gospel of Christ, and those with secular authority in the world didn;t want to hear it....

yet these martyrs often went to their deaths with joy... and a peace within themselves.... .in most every case all they had to do was renounce their faith and say they had been wrong and they would be free to go... .....but they stayed true to Christ... faithful even unto death..... i can;t say i know if they were "feeling good" about themselves at that point or not... but i believe they felt good about what they were doing... or if that is not the right word then at least confident that what they were doing was right.... .. they knew it was what service to Jesus required..... .

that is how i interpret the meaning of denying ourselves.... ..it;s not about feelings.... it;s about taking action...doing what is required to serve Jesus rather then ourselves..... ...like i said, it might simply be that we have different ways of using or interpreting english words, and the meaning of those words.. ...

(06-19-2021, 01:06 AM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]... then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me..... ...for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it..... ...for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?....... ....for the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works..... matthew 16; 24-27

[size=small][font=Comic Sans MS]this is one reason i have a problem with the other thread where you listed the things Jesus means to you and listed health and comfort among them...... i might be misunderstanding how you use these words and especially the words "feel" and "feeling"..... because i don;t see that scripture telling us if we would follow Jesus we must deny ourselves, as having anything at all to do with feelings...... it;s about obedience and service to Jesus rather than service to ourselves...... and being willing to do whatever is necessary to serve Jesus .... ... doing what He tells us to do and going where He tells us to go.. ..leaving our homes and jobs behind if need be.... and giving up the pursuit of our own success and concern over material things..... perhaps even at the expense of our own health and comfort....

I figured you "felt" this way. Does that word "felt" meaning anything to you in that sentence? Have you ever used that word yourself?

I'm not going to deal with the rest of what you've said at the moment. I believe it is important to deal with this vital issue. If you do not understand what I'm saying here, you will not understand the rest of what I say because it is essential to the topic.

There are plenty of people that are trying to serve God that "hate" serving God. They HATE what it brings into their lives. When you say feeling has nothing to do with it...... you're very very wrong. Denying ourselves also means to deny bad feelings that are part of our lives. "WANTING" or DESIRING to serve God are feelings. It is more than a intellectual decision. It is more than mind over body.

IT is CHOICE to LOVE our Master... OVER everything that we face or exists in this life.

Feelings often betray our sincerity in serving God.

Do you remember the story of Jonah? Jonah finally obeyed God and then hated every single thing that came out of obeying God.

Jon 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very confounded.
Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Jon 4:3 Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.
Jon 4:4 Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be grieved?

This the very root of what Jesus told those

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

It is the part in our walk of faith that tells us exactly where we are.

When I talk about "feelings"... I talking how you really FEEL about something.

Which goes back to what I said about Job. It is one thing to say something. It is another to live it. It is one thing to live it and another to take pleasure in doing so.

when i read your post that is not the impression i came away with.... ...to me it read as if you were equating "feeling good" about ourselves with self esteem... and "denying ourselves" with self loathing... ...not with being willing to make decisions or take action that changes the way we live, and the things we work for, because we have turned our hearts towards God and want to serve Him.. which is the way i see the phrase "must deny himself" being used by Jesus in matthew ...... a man can pull up the stakes that have stablized his life..deny himself the life he has built so far... or "take up his cross" as it were... and begin to obey God regardless of how he might "feel" about himself... ... and he can turn his heart toward God without fully understanding what loving God means... or what the love of God means.... .if he is truly dedicated to the service he will learn.. and change...find true joy like i spoke of in the service of Christ. . ..i am not speaking about the kind of self realization that we are all sinners and condemned to hell that a man must confront before he can be saved.... ...a christian does not have to return that former state in order to begin service to God

do you believe someone can serve God and not be happy about it?.. ..or importantly... can God use a person in His service even if that person is miserable in His service?.. .. or even when the person he is really serving is himself?.....

i believe God can... He does it all the time.... the most perfect love and commitment that the most dedicated christian in the world is capable of having is still far short of the love and commitment shown to us by God... .. our love is hatred by by comparison... and whether or not God can use in His service is not dependent on it..... .. mankind always thinks of himself... even when he is giving his own life for a cause or dying for those he loves... his very sin nature will keep that sacrifice from being a perfect one... thoughts of himself ... or imperfect "feelings" will still be in there.... ....

God told jonah to preach against nineveh and warn them of destruction by fire so nineveh would repent and 600,000 children who had not even reached accountability could be spared.. ..jonah refused and was made to suffer... ..those around him suffered also without even knowing the reason... after his experience in the whale jonah finally submitted and obeyed God.... .but he resented being made to do so..... that;s why even after nineveh repented jonah still wanted God to destroy nineveh with fire anyway so jonah could "feel" as if his time and effort had been put to good use.... and perhaps to even maintain what he saw as his personal credibility.... even in obeying Gods command jonah was thinking of himself.... ....God;s reasoning for sending jonah to nineveh was compassion and mercy for a city of well over a million people. ... jonah went there because he feared what God might do him next if he continued to refuse....

but did God still look on jonah as His servant in spite of his bad attitude and shortcomings?..... did God still look on jonah as one of His own when he ran off sulking after God spared nineveh?.... ..God took care of jonah. ... He didn;t leave jonah out there unprotected to roast under the sun and die.... .he made a large plant to grow and give jonah shade... which made jonah very happy for a time... made him happy... no doubt he "felt" as if he really was one of God;s own... . .but then the plant died and suddenly jonah was miserable again.... thought of himself as being abandoned by God and wanted to die.... ..God then showed jonah how he was wrong to have no compassion for so many people while caring more for a piece of vegetation... simply because the gourd provided him with comfort... if only for a day... while the people of niniveh ..even though they were loved by God... had meant nothing to jonah personally....

..at the end of ecclesiates we are told to ...

"fear God and keep His commandments... for this is the whole duty of man... for God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil....."

the writer of eccleciastes did not say we had to "feel" good about it.... we simply had to fear God and obey.....

jonah feared God...and though he ran away for awhile eventually he kept God;s commandment... ..and the repentance of nineveh took place as God had planned... and God still treated jonah as one of His own..regardless of jonahs sin and lack of love or compassion.... and worked to teach him more on those things afterwards....

when Jesus told us to deny ourselves He was not telling us to change the way we were feeling.... He was telling us that is we loved Him and wanted to follow Him then to obey His commands... but Jesus knew that even if we thought we loved Him it was nothing like the way we would learn to love Him through being in His service... .....nobody starts off service to God with the perfect way of seeing themselves and with the perfect kind of love in their hearts.... love and our ways of thinking... or feeling as you put it... improves and changes towards what is right as we continue to sacrifice our own will in Gods service and obey Him....

Quote:praise_yeshua

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

It is the part in our walk of faith that tells us exactly where we are.

When I talk about "feelings"... I talking how you really FEEL about something.

Which goes back to what I said about Job. It is one thing to say something. It is another to live it. It is one thing to live it and another to take pleasure in doing so.

are you saying job was lacking in one of those 3 things?..... or that one of those things was totally absent in him?..... and that;s why his torment at the hands of satan was necessary?...... ....when i read the book of job i see him honoring God with his words.... living what he has spoken by walking in faith... and also taking pleasure in it even before all that happened...... job loved God... but was that talk.. and walk of faith... and love of God perfect?.... ... no.... and not one of us can say that our own is either.... ..sometimes people work in the service of God.... obeying His commandments before they ever learn to really love God... . but obedience comes first.... in fact... obedience is how we show we have begun to love God.... job was not tormented because something was wrong with him or because he had a problem.... we all have problems... it was done so the works of God could be made manifest in him and so God would be glorified.... it;s not about us or who we are.... . it;s in spite of us and what we are....

from the time i first began posting on the old forums in 2004... i made it clear english was not my first language.. ..at present i am fluent in 6... and can understand another 4... .languages don;t always translate from one word to another cleanly.. ...in fact they seldom do... some languages have multiple words to describe different types of the same concept.. (like love)... where english only has one.. ..and they don;t interchange the meaning of words or allow slang to take over as the proper word to describe a concept as often as english does.... in english the word "feelings" can be used to describe everything from complicated thoughts to physical sensations caused by the release of catecholamines in the body and the movement of neurotransmitters in the brain.. ... all of which can be altered by processes having nothing to do with what a person believes or loves.... ... ..

i also wrote in every forum i have been a part of that i have other conditions which sometimes effects the way i interpret things... (schizophrenia)...see things.... .and sometimes in the way i say them or present them too.... ..so i hope you will forgive me if i come off abrasive when i don;t intend to be.... i try to reread everything multiple times before i respond .... and reread what i have written before hitting send even more... . but even then sometimes i don;t get it right.... .

but let me ask you a question about this thread.... .when you ask us to post about our love for God... how we "feel" about God... without thinking about ourselves, why did you not set the example and go first?.... ...

(06-19-2021, 06:29 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]when i read your post that is not the impression i came away with.... ...to me it read as if you were equating feeling good about ourselves with self esteem... and denying oneself with self loathing... ...not with being willing to make decisions or take action because we want to serve God... ...

I don't see self esteem in the Scriptures anywhere. That is nothing more than humanistic philosophy. Please show me one verse in the Scriptures that teach self esteem. In fact, the opposite is true.

Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Do you feel as if you need self esteem in your life? I don't. Everything I have worth of Eternity comes from another. Jesus Christ.

It is more important for me to FEEL GOOD about Him than it is to feel good about myself. No. I'm not into self loathing. I don't brood over failure. I get up and go again. A righteous man falls often, but he doesn't stay down.

(06-19-2021, 06:29 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]do you believe someone can serve God and not be happy about it?.. ..can God use a person in His service even if that person is miserable in His service?.. .. or even when the person they are really serving is themselves?.....

i believe God can... He does it all the time.... the most perfect love and commitment that the most dedicated christian in the world is capable of having is still far short of the love and commitment shown to us by God... .. our love is hatred by by comparison... and whether or not God can use in His service is not dependent on it..... .. mankind always thinks of himself... even when he is giving his own life for a cause or dying for those he loves... his very sin nature will keep that sacrifice from being a perfect one... thoughts of himself ... or imperfect "feelings" will still be in there.... ....

Sure I believe God can use anyone He wants... at any time... for any reason. That doesn't reflect well or guarantee God's pleasure in the person being used. Do you believe it does?

God loves us and fellowships with us even when we are wrong. If He didn't, we'd all be in a world of hurt.

I disagree with your claim that a person always thinks of themselves even when giving their lives for others. I imagine you believe Jesus was thinking of Himself when He died for mankind? Or the firefighter that charges the raging fire to save a child is thinking of themselves?

Yes. Feelings are not always good. I know you probably struggle with them. I do myself. However, I do know that I can control my feelings through the help of the Holy Spirit of God. I'm not always successful but I have found that I NEED to be. The older I get and the weaker I get..... the more I find .... yea... feel.... no pleasure in many of the things I once took pleasure in. I also found that I can find pleasure and good feelings when I need them from God. When I ask for peace, He gives it. When I ask for help, He gives it.

Do you remember the Psalm 77?

Psa 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.

Or Rachael?

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Many times, we refuse comfort.

(06-19-2021, 06:29 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]God told jonah to preach against nineveh and warn them of destruction by fire so nineveh would repent and 600,000 children who had not even reached accountability could be spared.. ..jonah refused and was made to suffer... ..those around him suffered also without even knowing the reason... after his experience in the whale jonah finally submitted and obeyed God.... .but he resented being made to do so..... that;s why even after nineveh repented jonah still wanted God to destroy nineveh with fire anyway so jonah could "feel" as if his time and effort had been put to good use.... and perhaps to even maintain what he saw as his personal credibility.... even in obeying Gods command jonah was thinking of himself.... ....God;s reasoning for sending jonah to nineveh was compassion and mercy for a city of well over a million people. ... jonah went there because he feared what God might do him next if he continued to refuse....

I can't help but recognize how self centered your words are here. You almost seem to be saying that Jonah had no choice. He hated with a cause. Jonah hated with a cause. He had reason to hate them. Here he is, doing the exact opposite of what God does toward us. God has reason to hate. Yet, He didn't. I'm not saying we always get it right but lets be true and recognize things for what they really are. Jonah was wrong. Jonah shouldn't have felt the way he felt. In fact, if he considered his own condition, he might have some sympathy toward his fellowman.

(06-19-2021, 06:29 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]but did God still look on jonah as His servant in spite of his bad attitude and shortcomings?..... did God still look on jonah as one of His own when he ran off sulking after God spared nineveh?.... ..God took care of jonah. ... He didn;t leave jonah out there unprotected to roast under the sun and die.... .he made a large plant to grow and give jonah shade... which made jonah very happy for a time... made him happy... no doubt he "felt" as if he really was one of God;s own... . .but then the plant died and suddenly jonah was miserable again.... thought of himself as being abandoned by God and wanted to die.... ..God then showed jonah how he was wrong to have no compassion for so many people while caring more for a piece of vegetation... simply because the gourd provided him with comfort... if only for a day... while the people of niniveh ..even though they were loved by God... had meant nothing to jonah personally....

You will always be God's possession. You will always be God child. However, He will not be satisfied with your progress. He wasn't satisfied with the progress of Job. He is not satisfied with mine. Relationships are always growing or they're in trouble. We're not going to lose Him but we are causing our own suffering in resisting the Spirit of God conforming us into the image of His Dear Son Jesus Christ.

(06-19-2021, 06:29 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]when Jesus told us to deny ourselves He was not [size=small][font=Comic Sans MS]telling us to change the way we were feeling.... He was telling us that is we loved Him and wanted to follow Him then

I'm stop here. You've made a mistake in what you just wrote. People often say this and don't even realize what they're saying.

You say its not about feeling.... yet you say if we "love" Him.....

Tell me what love is? Love is a feeling. In fact, John said that perfect love casts our fear because fear has torment......

If we are to love God with all our heart. Then our feelings have to change.

I want you to know that I love you sis. You're part of the family of God and I'm praying for you.

Another question on the side........

Why the issue with feeling right?

We don't always talk right... but we should.
We don't always act right.... but we should.
We don't always do most anything right.... but we should....

What the issue that everyone has with "feeling".... right?

Like John said. Perfect love casts out fear. Fear has torment. Both fear and love are feelings. One is bad. One is good.

i never said self esteem was in the scriptures..... what i did was wonder if you were equating that concept to what you described as the false "feel good about yourself" doctrine being taught in the false churches of today.... ....

so why do you come back at me and demand i show you something in scripture i never claimed was there?... ....did merely seeing the phrase "self esteem" trigger you and set you off?..... or was your vaguely worded opening post simply bait, designed to get a response you could pontificate on?...... ..i am asking because i really do not know... it seems now like it could have been... and if it was then i am sorry i even replied to it......... . . but whether it was or wasn;t.... that;s not even the worst of what you did here......

i left your last post unanswered for a long time.... hoping that you.. being a reasonable person.... would come back to it and take a second look.... have some second thoughts about it... .. recognize the hostility in your words.. and maybe even be a little bit ashamed of the way you misconstrued what i said.... made wild assumptions about what i believe... you even said you "imagine" i must believe things you know very well i do not....... then you took off and ran laps around your own imagination while accusing me of being self centered in my words.... ...i hoped you might see all that and realize you needed to change it or delete it and start over..... but you didn;t.... you left it sitting here a long time ...hostility and all uncorrected.... so i am left to take it that is the way you want it to be.... ok.... ...

but i must tell your post read like something right out of the old christ_undivided playbook... ..condescending ...even insulting.... in some places word for word the same way you answered people you disagreed with on the old forum.... and the same way that caused them to cut you off and decide to have nothing else to do with you.. ..you wrote as if you believe disagreement with you equates to being stupid.. ..as if there could be no other reason someone disagrees....

i don;t know you why did that there.... and i certainly don;t know why you did it here... for the record i appreciate very much the way you have defended me and stood up for me in the past.... both on this forum and also in the previous ones....but i thought you understood me better than this thread would indicate..... there appears to be either a major misunderstanding or else something has changed.... if so, the change was not with me....

for the record....... i know very well that love begins as an emotion.. it can become a very strong and overwhelming emotion.... . but i also know that if it does not progress beyond emotion.... or feelings as you called it.... and move to action on the part of the person you love then it is worthless... .. an empty hyped up feeling that does nothing more than gives someone the warm and fuzzies.... .and that goes for all the different kinds of love.... yes... there are 4 different kinds recognized in scripture..... in the latin 4 different words are used to describe those different kinds of love ..each has specific actions that are related to them and that validate them..... but in english they are all 4 placed under one generic term... love..... .

i have seen many christians..yourself included on this very forum.... list various scriptures having to do with love and then claim there was contradictions in the bible with regards to how scripture commanded us to love.. ..some people did that based on a lack of understanding that those types of loves were actually different... others simply disregarded the fact english even in the time of king james had already devolved to the point it was using single generic and sometimes vague or confusing words to describe concepts the latin and earlier languages used multiple different and more descriptive words to explain..... i don;t know what your reason for doing that was... but i remember i answered that post and even explained what i just wrote above..... .

my contention with the way you used the biblical phrase "deny ourselves" was that it demanded more of us than simply choosing to have a strong emotion or a positive feeling for Jesus.... it demanded action and obedience to what Christ would have us to do... over and above anything we wanted to do for ourselves.... to deny ourselves the pleasures, and even the things we think we need in this life, and to follow Christ.... to live for Him.. ... that is what i was saying.... but you claimed i was wrong... and not only wrong but stupid for believing it... ..

i believe those people wanting to follow Jesus, and that He instructed to deny themselves... already had a love for Jesus.... He was telling them what they must do next.... a thing i know (though it wasn;t mentioned there)... would cause their love for Jesus and love for the work of God to increase ... . but you acted as if i didn;t think love played a part in any of it at all... like it all had to be either or... black or white.. love or works but not both... you even tried to mock me for saying they already loved Jesus before He told them to deny themselves... as if i couldn;t see more than the black or white of it myself....... . why are you doing this?...... . ..

maybe i;m reading you wrong and i sincerely hope i am... but it seems that since i disagreed with you on a few things... you have decided i must be stupid about everything... and you have started talking down to me like you think i am an idiot... incapable of higher thought and only able to grasp the first grade level concepts.... . or as if you have decided i must have a cretin spirit incapable of emotion or of even the basic understanding what love is..... at one point you said my words were "self centered" in what i wrote about jonah.... as if you believe disagreement with you is not only stupid but also selfish....

in the beginning of this thing i said people... being born with a sin nature... cannot stop thinking of themselves... i attempted to explain that even at their best and with all thoughts of self suppressed and pushed down to the point they are able deny what is best for themselves, and to perform heroic things that appear selfless , to help or rescue others....... thoughts of themselves... and of all the things of earth they love... family, children etc... will still be there... if only in the back of their minds....... fear will still be there... sin will be there ......

but instead of asking me to clarify or to explain how i knew those things you accused me of believing a blasphemy about Jesus... who i did not even mention in that statement... and who i do not consider a part of sinful humanity... ..then you went on to mock me throwing my dads profession into it .... ...do you believe firefighter/paramedics enter a state of sinless perfection when they rush in to save someone from a raging fire?..... .. i can assure you they do not..... someone else on this forum could tell you even more about what goes through the minds of a first responder if you wanted to ask him.... ..but instead of asking either of us what we know and how we know it.. you chose to imagine and accuse.

untreated and without medications schizophrenia can effect and sometimes even control emotions... ..to a disastrous effect. ... and no you can;t always choose what emotions.. or "feelings" you want to have when schizophrenia is causing your brain to work in abnormal ways.... ..... ... i can;t speak for others who have it, but in my case it;s not just something doctors have "imagined" i suffer from... . it;s documented by MRI results that show developmental brain alterations common in people who suffered severe and prolonged childhood abuse.... ....do you really believe reading psalm 77 can fix that?.....

how about your type 2 diabetes problems?... have you discovered a psalm that fixes that?.. ....if you have you must share that with the world... specifically the medical world... it could change lives and even save the lives of thousands... maybe millions.... medications would become completely unnecessary.... ..... are there any other serious medical problems that can be fixed through the psalms?.. ....i would love to be able to throw every medication i have into the trash and never see another doctor again... . and i;m sure i am not alone....

i know i am being sarcastic here but in my opinion your statement that sometimes people refuse help... (scriptural help)... ..and the implication of that;s why i suffer the emotional instability associated with schizophrenia was flippant and calloused.... you have no idea how much help i have both sought and received over many years... both through medical science...church and family support... and also through scripture and prayer....

i know God can cure any medical.. physical ... mental.. you name it... problem we have.... sometimes He does.... but for some reason He also leaves a lot of things for us to work through and to work for.... He leaves us to help each other... and show compassion to each other... not only through words and emotions but also through work.... hard work. ..in His name and for His glory... .. ..in my experience those who think every medical condition... specifically those related to the mind... are all sin problems and the solutions are to simply change how we feel or change what we think, ..or "just read the bible and think happy thoughts"... come off as having no compassion at all...... ..oh they talk all day about how much they love the people who suffer in their midst..... but what do they actually do for them other than torment them further by telling them all their problems are due to their own sin and their lack of repentance, or that their lack of really wanting help is why they suffer?..... ...

at the end of the last post i wrote on this thread - before this one, i asked you to demonstrate the same thing you ask of everyone else in your opening post..... i ask you to tell us how you feel about God and of your love for Jesus without thinking about yourself.... ..you did not respond.... why?..... are you able to completely vanquish all thoughts of yourself while explaining the way you yourself feel about God?.... ....my contention is that it is impossible..... ..for one you have to start with self just to explain how you yourself feels about anything..... and it;s akin to believing in the false doctrine that teaches mankind is capable of sinless perfection to think or claim that any man can turn all his focus on God without any thought or cognition of himself... scripture teaches that our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God....

now... if you want to discuss how accurate and descriptive words once used throughout the english versions of scriptures have been gradually and progressively replaced over time with generic catch all words that can have multiple and even confusing meanings... (like the word "feel"...which occurs 7 times in the king james but multiple times in modern versions).....and if you want to discuss the dumbing down effect that switch to generic and vague words, even modern slang, has had on christianity... to the point it has even challenged doctrine... we can have that conversation.... there are many words in that category and it would be a good discussion.... .... but otherwise i am done with this....