Here's a key passage in the Bible (brackets are mine to give it context):
20 As for you, you meant evil against me [when you tried to kill me], but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Here you have both the evil will of the brothers and the good will of God being played out at exactly the same time in exactly the same way.
It doesn't say "God permitted it for good". It says God MEANT IT (planned it and made it happen) for good. So, on the one hand, you have the brothers who tried to kill Joseph of their own will. AND, on the other hand, it was God's will that the brothers try to kill Joseph.
Being mere men, we can't wrap our heads around this, so we start protesting that this would reduce men to mere puppets, etc., etc. But that's a limitation in our understanding. It says it right there, in black and white that they meant it and God meant it. So both must be true.
(05-26-2016, 02:11 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ] (05-25-2016, 11:47 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that most people don't change there mind, but some do. I've known a few that did. I changed my mind. I started out a Arminian. Switched between a few flavors of Calvinism. Ultimately, I decided to stop following what someone had to say about it and "get it myself". I developed a belief system of my own. I agree with many points from all sides.
We both came to vastly different conclusions. And we both base our conclusions on the Bible. At least that's what I assume you mean when you say "get it myself".
Maybe you've read Calvin or Arminius or Augustine. I haven't, except to check to see if they actually said what someone claimed they said.
I came to my conclusions strictly from what the Bible says. Not what some preacher said. Not what a Christian brother or sister said. Not what Calvin, Arminius, Luther, Augustine, or anyone else said. I HAVE read Luther, but I read some of his works AFTER I had come to my conclusions.
So -- if we read the same Bible, how could you come to a different conclusion than mine? Indeed, how is it that Bible-believing Christians can disagree on anything if what the Bible says is crystal clear?
I don't think the Bible IS crystal clear, and I think that's deliberate on God's part.
I believe we've pretty much used the same method. I've read Augustine, Calvin and many others. However, I've never accepted them as the "Gospel Truth" without question. They are nothing more than men trying to explain an infinitely complex God.
I think we've discussed this before but I will sum up my view in just a few sentences.
God's creative purpose in humanity was to create a being like Himself. A being knowing both God and evil, yet of its own freewill (just like God) choosing good. The ONLY way this could come to fruition. Is exactly the way its happening now. A being placed in a environment that would foster within itself the qualities of either good or evil. There is a great deal worth of difference between a "sparrow" and "humanity".... BOTH... being a product of God's purpose. If God wants His creation in humanity to be like Him, they must have their own choice. Many will choose evil and be consumed. However, some will accept the Gospel and become the purpose of God's choice in humanity.
(05-26-2016, 04:10 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a key passage in the Bible (brackets are mine to give it context):
20 As for you, you meant evil against me [when you tried to kill me], but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Here you have both the evil will of the brothers and the good will of God being played out at exactly the same time in exactly the same way.
It doesn't say "God permitted it for good". It says God MEANT IT (planned it and made it happen) for good. So, on the one hand, you have the brothers who tried to kill Joseph of their own will. AND, on the other hand, it was God's will that the brothers try to kill Joseph.
Being mere men, we can't wrap our heads around this, so we start protesting that this would reduce men to mere puppets, etc., etc. But that's a limitation in our understanding. It says it right there, in black and white that they meant it and God meant it. So both must be true.
I think we agree. I wrote my previous post before I read this reply. I believe what you just wrote fits perfectly within the summation of my beliefs.
There are things beyond our control. Limitations. Confinements. Almost everything in this life points directly to God. They influence us. Drive us. Steer us. However, they are many off ramps. Many pitfalls. Many obstacles.
Though Joseph couldn't avoid the "pit" and the "dungeon" in Egypt. Joseph was empowered by his ordeal. He could have killed his brothers or had them killed. He could have brought Israel to nothing.... but he didn't.
If all God wanted was stones..... He could make stones. He wants more.
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
God grants repentance to those who seek Him.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
(05-27-2016, 05:01 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: [ -> ]for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
I never said there wasn't anything preordained. There are. Many things.
Its one thing to say something is preordained and its an entirely different thing to say EVERYTHING is preordained. That's NOT true. Not even close.
No, I don't credit God with the foolish choices of man. No, I don't claim God foreordained the rape of little girls and boys. God didn't foreordain the evil nature of homosexuality.
NO. God doesn't foreordain such things. However, God certainly foreordained/predetermined the work of Christ.
You say I'm taking credit for something. Please tell me specifically... exactly..... where/what I take the credit.
Often such arguments are hollow.
When you say God foreordained or predetermined everything..... you're exactly, and specifically, charging/blaming God for the sinful actions of others. Sorry. God doesn't enjoy the rape of little children. That why he's going to burn the wicked with unquenchable fire and everlasting judgement.
To say such things are the "good pleasure of His will" is an insult to theology.
(05-27-2016, 05:48 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2016, 05:01 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: [ -> ]for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
I never said there wasn't anything preordained. There are. Many things.
Its one thing to say something is preordained and its an entirely different thing to say EVERYTHING is preordained. That's NOT true. Not even close.
No, I don't credit God with the foolish choices of man. No, I don't claim God foreordained the rape of little girls and boys. God didn't foreordain the evil nature of homosexuality.
NO. God doesn't foreordain such things. However, God certainly foreordained/predetermined the work of Christ.
You say I'm taking credit for something. Please tell me specifically... exactly..... where/what I take the credit.
Often such arguments are hollow.
When you say God foreordained or predetermined everything..... you're exactly, and specifically, charging/blaming God for the sinful actions of others. Sorry. God doesn't enjoy the rape of little children. That why he's going to burn the wicked with unquenchable fire and everlasting judgement.
To say such things are the "good pleasure of His will" is an insult to theology.
And yet when Joseph said "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good", he was saying God foreordained and predetermined that Joseph's brothers would commit the sinful action of trying to murder him.
The problem in your reasoning is that you think that amounts to blaming God. This isn't about blame. And it's a straw man to say that it means God enjoys the rape of little children. That's a man's point of view. We don't see things the way God sees them.
We don't create people, either. God does. And God creates some for glory, and others for destruction, just like it says in Romans.
Like I said, Joseph's brothers willed evil for their own evil purpose, AND God willed that they do evil to bring about a good purpose, and even though both things are true at the same time, that doesn't mean Joseph's brothers weren't willing and responsible for their actions.
(05-27-2016, 11:47 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2016, 05:48 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2016, 05:01 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: [ -> ]for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
I never said there wasn't anything preordained. There are. Many things.
Its one thing to say something is preordained and its an entirely different thing to say EVERYTHING is preordained. That's NOT true. Not even close.
No, I don't credit God with the foolish choices of man. No, I don't claim God foreordained the rape of little girls and boys. God didn't foreordain the evil nature of homosexuality.
NO. God doesn't foreordain such things. However, God certainly foreordained/predetermined the work of Christ.
You say I'm taking credit for something. Please tell me specifically... exactly..... where/what I take the credit.
Often such arguments are hollow.
When you say God foreordained or predetermined everything..... you're exactly, and specifically, charging/blaming God for the sinful actions of others. Sorry. God doesn't enjoy the rape of little children. That why he's going to burn the wicked with unquenchable fire and everlasting judgement.
To say such things are the "good pleasure of His will" is an insult to theology.
And yet when Joseph said "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good", he was saying God foreordained and predetermined that Joseph's brothers would commit the sinful action of trying to murder him.
The problem in your reasoning is that you think that amounts to blaming God. This isn't about blame. And it's a straw man to say that it means God enjoys the rape of little children. That's a man's point of view. We don't see things the way God sees them.
We don't create people, either. God does. And God creates some for glory, and others for destruction, just like it says in Romans.
Like I said, Joseph's brothers willed evil for their own evil purpose, AND God willed that they do evil to bring about a good purpose, and even though both things are true at the same time, that doesn't mean Joseph's brothers weren't willing and responsible for their actions.
First, I don't have that much time today, but I would like to make a statement and then ask that you clarify your position.
There I nothing with the Scriptures that says God preordains everything. Nothing. Please provide that evidence.
Second, is it your position that God preordains all evil for His glory and for good?
It is one thing say that God works all things together.... Notice that word together.... for good for them that love Him and its entirely a different thing to say that God preordains all the evil actions of mankind to produce a "Joseph" moment.
God can overcome any evil. Saying all evil is preordained by God is a very strong statement to make. We're not all "Jospeh".
Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Yes, I'm saying God preordains everything.
Our problem is that we don't have access to the whole plan and the whole purpose. We only see tiny bits and pieces and have no knowledge of what the whole plan amounts to, and whether God created a particular person or persons involved for glory or destruction.
So we see someone raped a child and think, "God couldn't possible have ordained that" because we have very limited information. We're seeing it from man's puny point of view. We have no idea what God's purpose was in that, and what "good" could possibly come from it.
Should we be outraged by such a tragedy? Of course! Because when a preordained tragedy happens, it may be preordained, but it also happens according to man's evil will at the same time. The rapist is guilty, through and through.
This is the heart of faith -- that God knows what he's doing, even when it seems outrageous to us. That's what it means to (prov 3:5) trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Job had that kind of trust. When outrageously bad things happened to him and his family... he said, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord."
(05-28-2016, 05:35 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Yes, I'm saying God preordains everything.
Our problem is that we don't have access to the whole plan and the whole purpose. We only see tiny bits and pieces and have no knowledge of what the whole plan amounts to, and whether God created a particular person or persons involved for glory or destruction.
So we see someone raped a child and think, "God couldn't possible have ordained that" because we have very limited information. We're seeing it from man's puny point of view. We have no idea what God's purpose was in that, and what "good" could possibly come from it.
Should we be outraged by such a tragedy? Of course! Because when a preordained tragedy happens, it may be preordained, but it also happens according to man's evil will at the same time. The rapist is guilty, through and through.
This is the heart of faith -- that God knows what he's doing, even when it seems outrageous to us. That's what it means to (prov 3:5) trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Job had that kind of trust. When outrageously bad things happened to him and his family... he said, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord."
Didn't you say in your first post on this thread that Calvinist / Arminian debates are rarely productive?
And that the devil had gotten enough work out of you already?
Need I point it out to you that you have now taken this argument far beyond the counterproductive phase of Calvinist debates, and stepped over into territory that is often highly damaging and injurious to people -
especially babes in Christ - who have been victims of the kinds of crimes you mentioned?
There is a difference in something being allowed by God -
to preserve free will, and a thing being preordained or
orchestrated by God.
God allowed satan to have his way with Job, but it was satan who desired it, and even suggested it be allowed in the first place. And then it was satan who went out from the presence of God and did the work that brought Job to the lowest point of his life. God knew what satan would do, and He knew how Job would respond. But God is not the one who did all that to Job.
I don't believe it is your intent, but when Calvinists begin hammering away with predestination theology they often come off to others as if they believe God is a great puppet master sitting in heaven pulling strings. To a victim of something as hideous as child rape the very notion of that is enough to drive them away from God. And it often does - right into the devils hands.
It's not worth it. The glory of God is not dependent on, nor enhanced by the substance of these kinds of arguments. And rather than say they are rarely productive I would say they never are. They serve the vanity of man more than they do the glory of God.
Good point. I'll bow out now.
(05-28-2016, 05:35 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Yes, I'm saying God preordains everything.
Our problem is that we don't have access to the whole plan and the whole purpose. We only see tiny bits and pieces and have no knowledge of what the whole plan amounts to, and whether God created a particular person or persons involved for glory or destruction.
So we see someone raped a child and think, "God couldn't possible have ordained that" because we have very limited information. We're seeing it from man's puny point of view. We have no idea what God's purpose was in that, and what "good" could possibly come from it.
Should we be outraged by such a tragedy? Of course! Because when a preordained tragedy happens, it may be preordained, but it also happens according to man's evil will at the same time. The rapist is guilty, through and through.
This is the heart of faith -- that God knows what he's doing, even when it seems outrageous to us. That's what it means to (prov 3:5) trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Job had that kind of trust. When outrageously bad things happened to him and his family... he said, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord."
I think we've discussed the issues with Proverbs 16 before....
I chose a poor example earlier. Needless to say there are many very bad things to happen in this life that are not at all complementary to the character of God.
No matter how one tries to slice the issue. The divine character of God is Impeccable. It is Impeccable because of the QUALITY of character.
God can overcome any evil. Thank God He does.