praise_yeshua > 10-12-2018, 08:53 PM
aleshanee > 10-29-2018, 10:19 AM
The Rogue Tomato > 10-30-2018, 05:47 PM
aleshanee > 10-30-2018, 07:23 PM
praise_yeshua > 10-31-2018, 02:48 PM
(10-30-2018, 05:47 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: I'm a Calvinist (as a generic term for God's sovereignty over all things, not having anything to do with Calvin).
Quote: But I don't think "made in God's image" is limited in any way to a certain group of people. It all depends on what one thinks "made in God's image" means. I happen to think it means we uniquely share certain attributes with God.
Quote:For example, we create, and do so in a way that no other earthly being creates. Ants create tunnels, termites create towers, but those are instincts built-in for survival. We create computers, art, music, etc., none of which is driven by survival instinct. We create by innovation and intelligent design, the same way God created all things.
(10-30-2018, 07:23 PM)aleshanee Wrote: i would go further and say that mankind does not even possess a natural survival instinct.... .... thus the reason the darwin awards became so popular.... ... even those who claim God does not exist admit mankind is born with a natural bent toward self destruction.....
but in truth what you are saying is what i believe too... ... i did not mean that i think calvinists believe only certain races of people or only one gender was created in the image of God... .. i am saying it;s my observation that those who do believe such things always tend to believe they are a member of that unique and exclusive group God created...... in the same way calvinists always see themselves as a member of the elect...... .....
in other words.... .. i have never met a true calvinist who believed that he or she was not a member of the elect.... .though they believe most people are what the bible calls vessels made for the purpose of destruction...... they never see themselves as one of those vessels...... .... .. ..likewise... .. i know people who believe only certain races... or one single race of people.. and by coincidence theirs...... was created in Gods image.. ..and they never believe they are not a member of that race themselves... ..... . ... they believe their race alone is the one God created in His image and all others are "mongrel" races... ..... .....they point to the woman of canaan that begged for Jesus help in matthew 15-22... .. and who the disciples advised Him to ignore... ....... Jesus told her He was not sent to her people but only to the lost sheep of the house of israel...... when she continued to beg for help he told her further that it was not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs..... ...
we all know the rest of the story and how it ended... .. and i believe they are misusing that part of scripture.... ...but there it is... ...... none of the ones i know who claim to believe in that associate themselves with the woman of canaan who knew she was not of the house of the israel... but whose faith earned her favor with Jesus... ... no.. they misuse other parts of scripture to claim the race they were born into has been grafted into the house of israel... but that all other races..... .. whether they have faith or not... are mongrel races...... or dogs.... .... .... and then they invoke modern physiology and genetic science to show that if someone was not born into your family they would not be likely to bear your image.... or to be born with it.....
complicated.... i know..... ... but that;s not even the half of it.....
on the old forums there were men who believed only men were created in the image of God.... ..they say women were created later and were made from adams body..... so therefore they are not created from Gods image.... ...... funny thing is i don;t remember any women on those forums who believed that.... and the arguments on both sides were intense..... ..... but the point is.... and making a long story short..... very few people who believe there is an exclusive group of people naturally born with Gods favor... or in His family and bearing His image.... have the faith to follow Him while continuing to see themselves outside Gods family.... ... or to see themselves as how they believe the woman of canaan did.... as one of the dogs that sat under the Masters table and survived off the crumbs that fell from it..... .
The Rogue Tomato > 10-31-2018, 03:46 PM
(10-31-2018, 02:48 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote:(10-30-2018, 05:47 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: I'm a Calvinist (as a generic term for God's sovereignty over all things, not having anything to do with Calvin).
Calvinist make this dishonest claim all the time. We all know it has everything to do with Calvin. The proof is no further than the very name you used to describe it. John Calvin's enemies didn't brand his theology by name...... and the doctrines of Grace got along just fine for centuries before some immature would be monarch.... lay claim to HIS doctrine position as being from God.
Brother, I'm not trying to offend you. Just telling the truth.
(10-30-2018, 07:23 PM)aleshanee Wrote: on the old forums there were men who believed only men were created in the image of God.... ..they say women were created later and were made from adams body..... so therefore they are not created from Gods image.... ...... funny thing is i don;t remember any women on those forums who believed that.... and the arguments on both sides were intense..... ..... but the point is.... and making a long story short..... very few people who believe there is an exclusive group of people naturally born with Gods favor... or in His family and bearing His image.... have the faith to follow Him while continuing to see themselves outside Gods family.... ... or to see themselves as how they believe the woman of canaan did.... as one of the dogs that sat under the Masters table and survived off the crumbs that fell from it..... .
praise_yeshua > 10-31-2018, 06:36 PM
(10-31-2018, 03:46 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: I got my view of God's sovereignty over all things from the Bible. I later read Luther's "Bondage of the Will", which reinforced my belief. Luther attributed much of his views to Augustine.Many have claimed Augustine. Luther is just one of many. Often these same people have widely varying beliefs. Sovereignty is often just an excuse various theologians give to project their own opinions to be the opinion of God. You know the old arguments. "Is God too weak that He can't control His creation". To which the answer is very simply. No. God isn't. That doesn't equal/mean that God does everything people claim He does. I try to back up my beliefs with Scripture. Precept upon Precept. From the beginning all the way through to the end.
Quote:Then I read A.W. Pink's "Sovereignty of God", which further reinforced my belief. At this point, I had never read anything by Calvin. I only read bits and pieces of Calvin's writings afterward to see if what some people were saying about his writings was true.
Quote:The Bible, Augustine and Luther preceded Calvin. Only Pink came afterward. And none of my views came from anything Calvin wrote.
Quote: In fact, since to me "Calvinism" is just short for the absolute sovereignty of God, I have read so little of Calvin that I couldn't honestly tell you if Calvin himself was a Calvinist in the way I think of it.
The Rogue Tomato > 11-01-2018, 10:57 AM
Quote:10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
praise_yeshua > 11-01-2018, 02:13 PM
(11-01-2018, 10:57 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: Luther preceded Calvin. In fact, I've read historians say that in truth, Calvin is nothing more than a footnote to Luther.
Quote:I went, huh? You deliberately don't want THEM to understand? I could see how this could be interpreted in different ways, but it was the spark that caused me to study the idea more. And I did.
Quote: And the more I read, the more I saw the Bible saying God chooses some but not others. Romans 9 really sealed the deal, but it's everywhere if one has eyes to see.
Quote:[color=#000000][size=medium]Years later, I read Luther's Bondage of the Will. Bondage of the Will represents a well developed argument (years of study) and was published in 1525 when Luther was 41 years old and Calvin was only 16 years old. So you can't claim Luther got any of his ideas from Calvin. It was 11 years later in 1536 when Calvin published the first edition of the Institutes. 10 years after that, Luther was dead (asleep).
The Rogue Tomato > 11-01-2018, 03:22 PM
(11-01-2018, 02:13 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote:(11-01-2018, 10:57 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: Luther preceded Calvin. In fact, I've read historians say that in truth, Calvin is nothing more than a footnote to Luther.
They were largely contemporaries. Luther died in 1546 at 62. Calvin died in 1564 at 54.