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When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
- When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
-
When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
praise_yeshua > 03-11-2017, 07:08 PM
There has long been some really bad attitudes tied to Biblical Ideals of Forgiveness.
It is impossible to accurately discern forgiveness without looking at the ultimate act of forgiveness seen in the death of Jesus Christ for sins of the entire world.
I saw a headline today from a "pastor" that says.....
"The question is not how much forgiveness do they deserve, the question is how much freedom do you desire"
I just get really tired of someone trying to present something old... in a new package.
The truth of matter is.....
Forgiveness is not about making yourself free from something. Granted. Its true that failing to forgive will bring you down but its not the way people think....
You can't truly forgive someone with the idea in your mind that its better for you if you do it. Forgiving someone for such a motive..... is not really forgiveness. You're just thinking about yourself. True forgiveness centers around others....
Let get this straight. God forgave the world, not for Himself, but for those needing forgiveness. This is true forgiveness. God forgiving the world didn't make Him feel better about Himself or free Him from some constraint...
Let it also get it straight. Just because God forgives.... doesn't mean His attitude toward the forgiven has changed. God's forgiveness seeks to lead people somewhere, Which is what true forgiveness does. God forgave this world, that doesn't mean He can have a relationship with everyone because of it.
I've forgiven people before with full understanding that I would probably never have a relationship with them...but I wanted them to be different. To know what forgiveness brings. Not what my action in forgiveness freed me from....
What's up with this selfish idea of forgiveness?
When Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother.... 70 x 7... It wasn't forgiving a single brother 70 times in a day. It was about forgiving all his brethren if they sinned against him 7 times everyday. Remember.... 70 disciples....
Oh how selfish we are... we make everything about us... -
RE: When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
aleshanee > 03-11-2017, 10:40 PM
i agree..... and i also get tired of hearing people say "unless you totally forget about the offense... and agree to return your relationship with the offender to what it once was.... then you have not really forgiven...." ... ..these are the same kinds of people who claim a pastor turned pedophile should be forgiven and allowed to pastor a church again if he apologizes... ... just as if nothing had ever happened... .... .. i wonder if they would feel the same way about allowing an apologetic convicted embezler to manage their financial accounts.... or if they would give a person convicted of identity theft and extortion.. but who apologized.... power of attorney over their personal estate.... ....
the truest and most simple definition of forgiveness is simply not seeking redress or payment for a debt you are owed.... not seeking compensation for your loss.... or not seeking revenge against the person who hurt you....... .... but it says nothing of forgetting or putting that person who did the wrong in a position to do it again..... ... protecting oneself from a former perpetrator does not mean you have not forgiven that person.... it simply means you have grown wise to his ways and are now taking action that will hopefully protect both of you..... you from being injured again by him.... and him from being tempted to do wrong again.... .....
and the freedom you gain in that act of forgiveness is that you now expect nothing from that other person.... there is nothing you believe he owes you..... and you give freedom to him by telling him that.... so he does not have to walk around believing he owes you a debt..... though he may still believe he owes you... if he is a just and honest person and truly repentant..... but you have given him the freedom not to either way .....
in many circumstances returning that same person.. once forgiven... to his former position could... and probably would... be taken as license to commit that same offense again.... and i see nothing in scripture which commands us to do that.... but i do see 2 things in what Jesus told peter about forgiving his brother 7 x 70 times..... i see Jesus saying peter should never expect payment or compensation from his brother for any wrong he thinks was done to him... no matter how many times he has done it........ but i also see Him telling peter that if you are unwise enough to put your brother in a postion to do you wrong 7 x 70 times then yes, it is your duty to forgive him every time he fails you..... -
RE: When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
praise_yeshua > 03-12-2017, 11:54 PM
Well said...
Self centered people see everything through the "lens" of self.
Its said when people make forgiveness about themselves.
Christ pleased not Himself....
Rom 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. -
RE: When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
lnf > 03-18-2017, 09:47 PM
(03-11-2017, 10:40 PM)aleshanee Wrote: i agree..... and i also get tired of hearing people say "unless you totally forget about the offense... and agree to return your relationship with the offender to what it once was.... then you have not really forgiven...." ... ..these are the same kinds of people who claim a pastor turned pedophile should be forgiven and allowed to pastor a church again if he apologizes... ... just as if nothing had ever happened... .... .. i wonder if they would feel the same way about allowing an apologetic convicted embezler to manage their financial accounts.... or if they would give a person convicted of identity theft and extortion.. but who apologized.... power of attorney over their personal estate.... ....
Excellent! Forgiveness does not equate to restored fellowship, nor does it equate to restored trust. What it does mean is that you won't recount to anyone and everyone who will listen how that person wronged you, especially when finishing up with the phrase, "but I have forgiven them". LOL
the truest and most simple definition of forgiveness is simply not seeking redress or payment for a debt you are owed.... not seeking compensation for your loss.... or not seeking revenge against the person who hurt you....... .... but it says nothing of forgetting or putting that person who did the wrong in a position to do it again..... ... protecting oneself from a former perpetrator does not mean you have not forgiven that person.... it simply means you have grown wise to his ways and are now taking action that will hopefully protect both of you..... you from being injured again by him.... and him from being tempted to do wrong again.... .....
and the freedom you gain in that act of forgiveness is that you now expect nothing from that other person.... there is nothing you believe he owes you..... and you give freedom to him by telling him that.... so he does not have to walk around believing he owes you a debt..... though he may still believe he owes you... if he is a just and honest person and truly repentant..... but you have given him the freedom not to either way .....
in many circumstances returning that same person.. once forgiven... to his former position could... and probably would... be taken as license to commit that same offense again.... and i see nothing in scripture which commands us to do that.... but i do see 2 things in what Jesus told peter about forgiving his brother 7 x 70 times..... i see Jesus saying peter should never expect payment or compensation from his brother for any wrong he thinks was done to him... no matter how many times he has done it........ but i also see Him telling peter that if you are unwise enough to put your brother in a postion to do you wrong 7 x 70 times then yes, it is your duty to forgive him every time he fails you..... -
RE: When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
aleshanee > 03-22-2017, 06:55 AM
(03-18-2017, 09:47 PM)lnf Wrote: Excellent! Forgiveness does not equate to restored fellowship, nor does it equate to restored trust. What it does mean is that you won't recount to anyone and everyone who will listen how that person wronged you, especially when finishing up with the phrase, "but I have forgiven them". LOL
very true.... and i don;t see a reason to even bring something up if you really did forgive the person who did it to you.... if they sincerely apologized..... and if you were able to recover well enough from what ever it was..... ...... ...
but then there are times when something done to you might have been so bad.... and so injurious.... that it left irreparable damage..... damage that permanently affects the way you live the rest of your life..... things that other people can;t help but notice.... and which makes them start asking sensitive and sometimes very personal questions....... ........ and at times like that it;s very hard not to end up telling people about what happened..... unless you want to isolate yourself from everybody and hide for the rest of your life...... it can be tempting to live that way sometimes...... .... but if you do choose live with the rest of the world to answer people that ask you questions....... and depending on the depth of the injury and the pain that thing which happened might still be causing you.... it might be very hard, in spite of your best efforts to explain it otherwise... to avoid sounding bitter about it all..... even if you are not..... ......... but i have learned that good people will understand that.... will accept you for what you are as well as for what you are not....... and will not hold any of it against you.....
but then there are also times when other people who don;t really want to know what happened at all, will start asking questions..... .... and when you begin to tell them they will demand that you stop..... and they will tell you something like "they can;t stand to hear it".... or they don;t believe it.... or it;s a story "too terrible for their sensitive ears"..... ....but in the very course of refusing to hear the reasons for your situation they will still make certain to let you know in every possible way just how much your situation bothers them.....how it makes them feel uncomfortable....... and how they wish you would change... make it stop... or just go away.......... they make it clear that they wish to hold everything about you that bothers them against you....... ... that can cause the forgiven and long ago extinguished resentment towards the person who originally hurt you to rekindle all over again...... it can also cause you to you to redirect all that newly resurrected resentment towards this new person who is asking personal questions but refusing to understand or consider the answers...........
people in that second group love to preach proud and arrogant sermons about those who wallow in bitterness and are unable to forgive..... .. they relentlessly berate others they see as bitter and unforgiving.. all the while trying to convince the rest of the world they are superior christians because they have endured what they see as the most painful of all hardships... yet suffered no permanent or lasting effects from it...... and certainly have no bitterness..... yet if you listen to them long enough you will begin to notice just how bitter their lamentations against the bitterness they see in others comes across..... and i figured out long ago that the reason some of these people have such an arrogant and misguided attitude towards forgiveness is that nothing in their idyllic lives has ever happened to them worth forgiving..... .....and in a weird ironic way that has left them strangely bitter......
......... it;s almost difficult to fathom......... 
-
RE: When Forgiveness.... really isn't forgiveness
lnf > 03-23-2017, 01:09 AM
(03-22-2017, 06:55 AM)aleshanee Wrote:
My reply above was too flippant and short, nor did it take into account injuries that are most grievous and permanent.(03-18-2017, 09:47 PM)lnf Wrote: Excellent! Forgiveness does not equate to restored fellowship, nor does it equate to restored trust. What it does mean is that you won't recount to anyone and everyone who will listen how that person wronged you, especially when finishing up with the phrase, "but I have forgiven them". LOL
very true.... and i don;t see a reason to even bring something up if you really did forgive the person who did it to you.... if they sincerely apologized..... and if you were able to recover well enough from what ever it was..... ...... ...
but then there are times when something done to you might have been so bad.... and so injurious.... that it left irreparable damage..... damage that permanently affects the way you live the rest of your life..... things that other people can;t help but notice.... and which makes them start asking sensitive and sometimes very personal questions....... ........ and at times like that it;s very hard not to end up telling people about what happened..... unless you want to isolate yourself from everybody and hide for the rest of your life...... it can be tempting to live that way sometimes...... .... but if you do choose live with the rest of the world to answer people that ask you questions....... and depending on the depth of the injury and the pain that thing which happened might still be causing you.... it might be very hard, in spite of your best efforts to explain it otherwise... to avoid sounding bitter about it all..... even if you are not..... ......... but i have learned that good people will understand that.... will accept you for what you are as well as for what you are not....... and will not hold any of it against you.....
but then there are also times when other people who don;t really want to know what happened at all, will start asking questions..... .... and when you begin to tell them they will demand that you stop..... and they will tell you something like "they can;t stand to hear it".... or they don;t believe it.... or it;s a story "too terrible for their sensitive ears"..... ....but in the very course of refusing to hear the reasons for your situation they will still make certain to let you know in every possible way just how much your situation bothers them.....how it makes them feel uncomfortable....... and how they wish you would change... make it stop... or just go away.......... they make it clear that they wish to hold everything about you that bothers them against you....... ... that can cause the forgiven and long ago extinguished resentment towards the person who originally hurt you to rekindle all over again...... it can also cause you to you to redirect all that newly resurrected resentment towards this new person who is asking personal questions but refusing to understand or consider the answers...........
people in that second group love to preach proud and arrogant sermons about those who wallow in bitterness and are unable to forgive..... .. they relentlessly berate others they see as bitter and unforgiving.. all the while trying to convince the rest of the world they are superior christians because they have endured what they see as the most painful of all hardships... yet suffered no permanent or lasting effects from it...... and certainly have no bitterness..... yet if you listen to them long enough you will begin to notice just how bitter their lamentations against the bitterness they see in others comes across..... and i figured out long ago that the reason some of these people have such an arrogant and misguided attitude towards forgiveness is that nothing in their idyllic lives has ever happened to them worth forgiving..... .....and in a weird ironic way that has left them strangely bitter...... ......... it;s almost difficult to fathom.........
What I meant by "recount to anyone and everyone who will listen" is this: certain people thrive on recounting the wrongs done to them, quite often of a minor or temporary nature. They tend to initiate the conversation of how they were wronged with people who haven't even expressed an interest in their history, asked a specific question or have a vested interest of some sort, which equates to nothing more than gossip.
For example, in my past, I was the owner of a subcontracting company. A general contractor who I did a lot of business with did not pay me for a big job. Long story short, I ended up having to close the business. I paid our creditors with my personal resources to avoid stiffing them by declaring corporate bankruptcy. It set me back for several years, but God blessed me for fulfilling those obligations. As to forgiveness, I admit that it took me quite some time, but ultimately, I did. But before I did, I was quick to bash them whenever I could to whoever I could. After I forgave them, I would only mention it to other contractors who told me that they were doing business with them. And I simply told them to dot their I's and cross their T's to protect themselves. As to that contractor, my company was a small fish in their big pond and they gobbled us up. As it turned out, they entered the big pond of an even bigger contractor...and they got gobbled up. They are no longer in business. Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
But like you noted, not all who ask are genuinely interested in your story and honestly want to understand you better. Many people are simply nosey. And when they get a noseful of the ugly truth, they react badly. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell the difference until they react badly...
I have found you to be open and honest about your past, without being vindictive or bitter. And I know you have been hurt when you have shared the truth with certain people. But I applaud you for your openness. Healing is found there, even in the midst of the setbacks caused by those such as you have described.