The Rogue Tomato > 05-26-2016, 04:10 AM
praise_yeshua > 05-26-2016, 12:09 PM
(05-26-2016, 02:11 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote:(05-25-2016, 11:47 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: I agree that most people don't change there mind, but some do. I've known a few that did. I changed my mind. I started out a Arminian. Switched between a few flavors of Calvinism. Ultimately, I decided to stop following what someone had to say about it and "get it myself". I developed a belief system of my own. I agree with many points from all sides.
We both came to vastly different conclusions. And we both base our conclusions on the Bible. At least that's what I assume you mean when you say "get it myself".
Maybe you've read Calvin or Arminius or Augustine. I haven't, except to check to see if they actually said what someone claimed they said.
I came to my conclusions strictly from what the Bible says. Not what some preacher said. Not what a Christian brother or sister said. Not what Calvin, Arminius, Luther, Augustine, or anyone else said. I HAVE read Luther, but I read some of his works AFTER I had come to my conclusions.
So -- if we read the same Bible, how could you come to a different conclusion than mine? Indeed, how is it that Bible-believing Christians can disagree on anything if what the Bible says is crystal clear?
I don't think the Bible IS crystal clear, and I think that's deliberate on God's part.
(05-26-2016, 04:10 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: Here's a key passage in the Bible (brackets are mine to give it context):
20 As for you, you meant evil against me [when you tried to kill me], but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Here you have both the evil will of the brothers and the good will of God being played out at exactly the same time in exactly the same way.
It doesn't say "God permitted it for good". It says God MEANT IT (planned it and made it happen) for good. So, on the one hand, you have the brothers who tried to kill Joseph of their own will. AND, on the other hand, it was God's will that the brothers try to kill Joseph.
Being mere men, we can't wrap our heads around this, so we start protesting that this would reduce men to mere puppets, etc., etc. But that's a limitation in our understanding. It says it right there, in black and white that they meant it and God meant it. So both must be true.
Mojo Rison > 05-27-2016, 05:01 PM
praise_yeshua > 05-27-2016, 05:48 PM
(05-27-2016, 05:01 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
The Rogue Tomato > 05-27-2016, 11:47 PM
(05-27-2016, 05:48 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote:(05-27-2016, 05:01 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
I never said there wasn't anything preordained. There are. Many things.
Its one thing to say something is preordained and its an entirely different thing to say EVERYTHING is preordained. That's NOT true. Not even close.
No, I don't credit God with the foolish choices of man. No, I don't claim God foreordained the rape of little girls and boys. God didn't foreordain the evil nature of homosexuality.
NO. God doesn't foreordain such things. However, God certainly foreordained/predetermined the work of Christ.
You say I'm taking credit for something. Please tell me specifically... exactly..... where/what I take the credit.
Often such arguments are hollow.
When you say God foreordained or predetermined everything..... you're exactly, and specifically, charging/blaming God for the sinful actions of others. Sorry. God doesn't enjoy the rape of little children. That why he's going to burn the wicked with unquenchable fire and everlasting judgement.
To say such things are the "good pleasure of His will" is an insult to theology.
praise_yeshua > 05-28-2016, 11:29 AM
(05-27-2016, 11:47 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote:First, I don't have that much time today, but I would like to make a statement and then ask that you clarify your position.(05-27-2016, 05:48 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote:(05-27-2016, 05:01 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Acts 4:27-28
Here we see God predeterminig the Crucifixion of Christ, Gods hand in it the whole way. Men were responsible, but God preordained it.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Again we see God doing the work in people, appointed to eternal life, not the people choosing, they can't, they are dead in their sins.
People just want to take credit instead of giving all of the glory to God, synergism is man centered, monergism is God centered, I see where Scripture points to a monergistic teaching.
I never said there wasn't anything preordained. There are. Many things.
Its one thing to say something is preordained and its an entirely different thing to say EVERYTHING is preordained. That's NOT true. Not even close.
No, I don't credit God with the foolish choices of man. No, I don't claim God foreordained the rape of little girls and boys. God didn't foreordain the evil nature of homosexuality.
NO. God doesn't foreordain such things. However, God certainly foreordained/predetermined the work of Christ.
You say I'm taking credit for something. Please tell me specifically... exactly..... where/what I take the credit.
Often such arguments are hollow.
When you say God foreordained or predetermined everything..... you're exactly, and specifically, charging/blaming God for the sinful actions of others. Sorry. God doesn't enjoy the rape of little children. That why he's going to burn the wicked with unquenchable fire and everlasting judgement.
To say such things are the "good pleasure of His will" is an insult to theology.
And yet when Joseph said "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good", he was saying God foreordained and predetermined that Joseph's brothers would commit the sinful action of trying to murder him.
The problem in your reasoning is that you think that amounts to blaming God. This isn't about blame. And it's a straw man to say that it means God enjoys the rape of little children. That's a man's point of view. We don't see things the way God sees them.
We don't create people, either. God does. And God creates some for glory, and others for destruction, just like it says in Romans.
Like I said, Joseph's brothers willed evil for their own evil purpose, AND God willed that they do evil to bring about a good purpose, and even though both things are true at the same time, that doesn't mean Joseph's brothers weren't willing and responsible for their actions.
The Rogue Tomato > 05-28-2016, 05:35 PM
DeepSix > 05-28-2016, 07:30 PM
(05-28-2016, 05:35 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Yes, I'm saying God preordains everything.
Our problem is that we don't have access to the whole plan and the whole purpose. We only see tiny bits and pieces and have no knowledge of what the whole plan amounts to, and whether God created a particular person or persons involved for glory or destruction.
So we see someone raped a child and think, "God couldn't possible have ordained that" because we have very limited information. We're seeing it from man's puny point of view. We have no idea what God's purpose was in that, and what "good" could possibly come from it.
Should we be outraged by such a tragedy? Of course! Because when a preordained tragedy happens, it may be preordained, but it also happens according to man's evil will at the same time. The rapist is guilty, through and through.
This is the heart of faith -- that God knows what he's doing, even when it seems outrageous to us. That's what it means to (prov 3:5) trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Job had that kind of trust. When outrageously bad things happened to him and his family... he said, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord."
The Rogue Tomato > 05-28-2016, 07:43 PM
praise_yeshua > 05-29-2016, 02:37 AM
(05-28-2016, 05:35 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Yes, I'm saying God preordains everything.
Our problem is that we don't have access to the whole plan and the whole purpose. We only see tiny bits and pieces and have no knowledge of what the whole plan amounts to, and whether God created a particular person or persons involved for glory or destruction.
So we see someone raped a child and think, "God couldn't possible have ordained that" because we have very limited information. We're seeing it from man's puny point of view. We have no idea what God's purpose was in that, and what "good" could possibly come from it.
Should we be outraged by such a tragedy? Of course! Because when a preordained tragedy happens, it may be preordained, but it also happens according to man's evil will at the same time. The rapist is guilty, through and through.
This is the heart of faith -- that God knows what he's doing, even when it seems outrageous to us. That's what it means to (prov 3:5) trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Job had that kind of trust. When outrageously bad things happened to him and his family... he said, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord."