The Fighting Fundamental Forums

Spurgeon addressed in a sermon the objection that if election exists, how is it that an elect boy in deepest darkest Africa, where there is no missionary, could hear the Gospel?  Spurgeon said the Gospel will be brought to him supernaturally.  

Well, here's an example of the Gospel brought to China long before there were any missionaries to go there:

What Spurgeon said is contray to the Scriptures.

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 

Those that have not heard the Gospel can not respond to the Gospel. Those who never hear the Gospel will die without mercy. God gave the Gospel and it filled this entire world. The Grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to ALL MEN. God has never been obligated to continually and without end make sure every man, women or child hears the Gospel. 

In fact, what most hear today is a branded gospel. A message of marketing a Jesus that is so unlike the incarnate Christ. Most have a SELF marketing campaign. Not a REAL ministry of Jesus Christ. 

I actually saw a baptism today that took place where the candiates to be baptized all wore a church branded T-Shirt of the church they were "saved" into. I can say that it honestly upset me more than I would have thought it would. Something that is all about Christ Jesus and it has to be "BRANDED" to honor the assembly it took place at...... 

As far as the video is concerned. The author is speculating so let me speculate as well.

Gen 25:5  And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. 
Gen 25:6  But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. 

Those in the east were also the descendants of Abraham. Abraham not only taugh Isaac. He taught all his descendants the Gospel. 

Gen 18:19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 

Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 
Gal 3:9  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

You're seeing this as an EITHER/OR, while I'm seeing it as an AND. God uses men, but is not confined to what man does or does not do.

(12-03-2018, 02:36 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]You're seeing this as an EITHER/OR, while I'm seeing it as an AND.  God uses men, but is not confined to what man does or does not do.

I could accept an "AND" view if I could see it from the Scriptures. Can you provide Scripture that backs up what Spurgeon said?

There are situations in the Scriptures that show that man died without hope and without God. Without any chance of redemption for a very long time. For example......

Eph 2:11  Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 
Eph 2:12  remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 

Countless Gentiles dead in their sins with the truth "shut up" in Israel. 

Spurgeon's view of election doesn't match what the Scriptures declare. The Gospel is essential to conversion. I see no reason to believe that God will create individuals to delivery the Gospel to every single person supposedly chosen in Eternity past. 

God's choice in Election was His Son. Not some group of people known by name.

(12-03-2018, 10:15 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]I could accept an "AND" view if I could see it from the Scriptures. Can you provide Scripture that backs up what Spurgeon said?

You mean scripture that backs up a supernatural revelation of the Gospel vs. a man who delivers it?

Paul.

Abraham. (Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”) He SAW it (past tense) and was glad, yet it hasn't happened yet.

A whole host of people saved before Jesus was born, let alone crucified. Unless you believe they were saved by the law, they had to be saved by grace outside of hearing the Gospel message delivered by "the feet of them".

And how else do you explain a 100% accurate description of the Gospel written in China at the very time it was happening?

(12-04-2018, 07:46 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-03-2018, 10:15 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]I could accept an "AND" view if I could see it from the Scriptures. Can you provide Scripture that backs up what Spurgeon said?

You mean scripture that backs up a supernatural revelation of the Gospel vs. a man who delivers it?

Paul.  

Abraham.  (Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”)  He SAW it (past tense) and was glad, yet it hasn't happened yet.

A whole host of people saved before Jesus was born, let alone crucified.  Unless you believe they were saved by the law, they had to be saved by grace outside of hearing the Gospel message delivered by "the feet of them".

And how else do you explain a 100% accurate description of the Gospel written in China at the very time it was happening?

The Gospel wouldn't exist without the Divine action of God in every aspect of production, including the call of the "Preacher" mentioned in "Paul's" Gospel that I referenced in Romans. 

However, that is not to say that God has constructed the delivery and necessity based on the demands of Spurgeon. Which is why I asked for proof of Spurgeon's claim. I speculated on China and I don't really see how China proves what Spurgeon said is true. Can you elaborate on why exactly "China" proves what Spurgeon said is true?
God made sure that the descendants of Abraham had influence in the east. That doesn't mean that God Divinely purposed that this "elect" Spurgeon witnesses is constructed according to Spurgeon's reasoning. Which is a failing common in such views of election as he held. He always starts at the end and fabricates a means that has very little substance in reality. 

Can you start at the beginning of the elect and give an more detailed explanation as to how Spurgeon is true according to the teaching of the Scriptures?

In my doctrine, I can start at the beginning of God's choice and follow them point by point through the revelation of the Scriptures. 

Election is all about God's choice in His Son Jesus Christ. The "Elect/Choice" of God is Jesus Christ our Lord. Not some rebellious sinner dragged to God. Those, who of their freewill, choose to accept God's work in humanity are the "Elect" like Jesus Christ. Fashioned in the Perfect Image of our Glorified Christ. God, in His infinite wisdom sought to create a people just like His Son. "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness". Adam was just a single point within God's Divine action to create this people. Christ was purposed before this world was ever created. Spurgeon starts with some ideal of a sinner being dragged to God and fabricates a lie that replaces Jesus Christ with the individuals who claim God made them such.....The Love of God must be experienced. Only such an experience as God crafted in creating this life to show forth His love can explain God's ultimate creation in a people like Him.

There are other things God has done to make sure man understands the Gospel message that doesn't require a preacher "per say".

God made us thirsty so we would desire something that would satisfy our endless thirst
God made us hungry so we would desire something that would satisfy our endless hunger
God made us so we can see light and fear darkness so He could talk about light and dark and man would have understanding
God made the seed break forth from the ground so we could understand the resurrection from the dead. Even so as Paul explained in his Gospel
God made the tree planted by the water so we could understand how steadfast we can be in Him
Over and Over again, God is "showing off" all around us that we might recognize Him and His work.

You're obsessing about Spurgeon. The point I was making was that God will, at his good pleasure, reveal the Gospel supernaturally at his discretion, in some cases (like Paul) in order to recruit someone as needed, and in other cases, in order to reach the elect who have no access to a missionary to preach the Gospel. That was demonstrated in many ways in the Bible, and now in the history recorded in China. God uses people to spread the Gospel, but he doesn't NEED people to spread the Gospel. He can spread it without our help when he pleases.

That's a fact.

(12-06-2018, 07:39 AM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]You're obsessing about Spurgeon.  The point I was making was that God will, at his good pleasure, reveal the Gospel supernaturally at his discretion, in some cases (like Paul) in order to recruit someone as needed, and in other cases, in order to reach the elect who have no access to a missionary to preach the Gospel.  That was demonstrated in many ways in the Bible, and now in the history recorded in China.  God uses people to spread the Gospel, but he doesn't NEED people to spread the Gospel.  He can spread it without our help when he pleases.

That's a fact.

I don't see how you can say that I'm obsessed about Spurgeon. You agreed with his comments. I didn't. I gave up following Spurgeon a very long time ago. I have simply challenged you to support your view of election with Scripture. 

God doesn't NEED anyone period. You don't need to see something exclusive in the Gospel.

The author of the video is witnessing to what God has done in nature. Which leaves man without excuse in that there are so many natural things that point to God's loving-kindness. Man should naturally seek God. That is Scripture.
Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 

However, these natural things do NOT establish the entirety of the Gospel. They witness to the Gospel. What I mentioned previous from Paul's Gospel is clear. There must be a revelation of Jesus Christ in the fullness of the Gospel message. 

Where do you see Jesus Christ specifically mentioned in this witness to China? 

As I mentioned concerning the Gentile world had been abandoned and did not have the "good news" from God. Even though they were encompassed with many natural witnesses around them..... they were still without hope and without God in this world.

(12-07-2018, 01:17 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]The author of the video is witnessing to what God has done in nature. Which leaves man without excuse in that there are so many natural things that point to God's loving-kindness. Man should naturally seek God. That is Scripture.

However, these natural things do NOT establish the entirety of the Gospel. They witness to the Gospel. What I mentioned previous from Paul's Gospel is clear. There must be a revelation of Jesus Christ in the fullness of the Gospel message. 

Where do you see Jesus Christ specifically mentioned in this witness to China? 

When the author says the sins of the world have been placed upon one man. Pardon is proclaimed unto all under heaven.

Quote:Election is all about God's choice in His Son Jesus Christ. The "Elect/Choice" of God is Jesus Christ our Lord.

That makes no sense in the context of scripture. "The elect" constantly refers to people, not one person in Jesus Christ.

(12-08-2018, 02:53 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 01:17 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]The author of the video is witnessing to what God has done in nature. Which leaves man without excuse in that there are so many natural things that point to God's loving-kindness. Man should naturally seek God. That is Scripture.

However, these natural things do NOT establish the entirety of the Gospel. They witness to the Gospel. What I mentioned previous from Paul's Gospel is clear. There must be a revelation of Jesus Christ in the fullness of the Gospel message. 

Where do you see Jesus Christ specifically mentioned in this witness to China? 

When the author says the sins of the world have been placed upon one man.  Pardon is proclaimed unto all under heaven.

I didn't see the name of Jesus mentioned anywhere in the evidence given. The Gospel is preached "In His Name".

I see no reason to believe you actually believe the last sentence. Do you believe pardon is proclained unto all under the heaven?

Quote:That makes no sense in the context of scripture.  "The elect" constantly refers to people, not one person in Jesus Christ.

Obviously you're relying on what other's have said to make such a claim. Do you really know the Scriptures enough to repeat what they say with confidence?

Isa 42:1  Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 

Will you now reconsider? Don't trust what others have told you.