The Fighting Fundamental Forums

Jesus means health.
Jesus means peace.
Jesus means love.
Jesus means joy.
Jesus means comfort. 
Jesus means everlasting life.......

Not just for me. For everyone..... equally.... and to the same degree regardless of when, what, where and why.

redemption.....
.....from the wages of sin...

freedom... from fear of death...
...... and the tyranny of evil...

a shepherd.... that leads me through the darkness...
....and strikes fear into the many dogs and wolves that stalk the path...

a calm place in the eye of a storm... .where the winds cease.... and the voices of confusion are silenced..

service.... in gratitude and obedience to the Savior who led me to a new beginning.......

more things than i can even express or begin to put into words... without writing a novel or encyclopedia....... but still... other than redemption and the promise of eternal life... i don;t feel i can speak to all things Jesus should or should not mean to others... ...but i understand that to many christians... including some i am even related to....  Jesus seems to mean all the best things in life..... ...and yet... ..scripture teaches us most people don;t fully understands what Jesus means to them until the worse things in life happen.....

job was at the lowest point in his life... and not experiencing anything in the way of health or comfort... not even joy....  his wife appeared to hate him.. telling him to curse God and die.... ...and his friends were making certain he could not have peace... . yet in that worst moment when even those closest to him were telling him he was beyond hope... job was trusting God..... and long before the name of Jesus was even known to men, scripture makes it evident jobs' faith was in the coming messiah...

he said -

....i know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin,worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall i see God: whom i shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me...(job 19;25-27)

though i haven;t come close to suffering what job suffered... and would never want to...... what Jesus meant to job is the same as what Jesus means to me..... ....if i had to put it one word - redemption....

There is no greater equalizer of mankind than God's purpose in Jesus Christ to be the Redeemer of all of humanity. All men have equal access to God through Jesus Christ. No matter the condition or position within society, any person can call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Even the deaf, mute, and blind have the same access. The same remedy. The potential position through Jesus Christ our Lord.

(05-29-2021, 12:11 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]more things than i can even express or begin to put into words... without writing a novel or encyclopedia....... but still... other than redemption and the promise of eternal life... i don;t feel i can speak to all things Jesus should or should not mean to others... ...but i understand that to many christians... including some i am even related to....  Jesus seems to mean all the best things in life..... ...and yet... ..scripture teaches us most people don;t fully understands what Jesus means to them until the worse things in life happen.....

I'm no better than Job but some people learn certain things sooner than others.

This is a good conversation to have.....

There are many reasons things happen in our life. Some of them come to us through chance/circumstance. Sometimes we get caught up/affected by others people's sins. More so by our own willing sinfulness. Events in any human beings life are complicated in the scope of causality. Sometimes, things just happen and there is no reason to try to explain/understand them in great detail.

However, listening to God from the beginning, will save a person from untold misery in this life. There is a hole in every single human being that can only be filled with God. Some people learn this sooner than others. Most never learn this.

It is human nature to try to explain why we are, how we are, when we are....... where we are. I'm not saying it isn't good to know this. It definitely is, its just that we get in the way of ourselves by not seeing ourselves for what we are. Which is exactly what was wrong with Job. Many many people see purpose in Job's suffering and there was....... FOR JOB.

In fact, read Job 42....

Job 42:3  Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 
Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 
Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 
Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. 

I have never heard any preacher in my life deal with these verses properly. They generally just read through them and declare Job/God vindicated through suffering.......

Yet, read it again. Read it over and over.

1. Job only knew what he had been told. Verse #5. Though Job knew about God, his understanding was limited. In some ways, we have greater light today. Even though we do, it is still true that sooner or later, it is the duty of all of humanity to find God for THEMSELVES..... In other words, you can't live off the faith of others. Their faith has to become YOUR FAITH. You have to get it for yourself. Up till this point, Job had known God through the words of others. That is where every person begins but it is imperative they not stay there.

2. Job said somethings that he didn't know exactly what they meant. That is...... till he saw himself for who he really was. vs 3, 5-6. Like I said, I'm not better than Job. However, there are people in this life that have begun to know God before Job did. They started their journey early. They listened more. They heeded more. They didn't rely upon the words of others. They began to get to know God themselves. Often. Early.

Again. I'm no better than Job. Not claiming to be. However, the suffering of Job and his life should teach us. He learned that we might learn through his words. Not through suffering ourselves.

Just like Jesus. He suffered so we don't have to suffer.

Again. Not saying that there isn't purpose in suffering. There is, but what good is it for others to suffer if it doesn't help us avoid it?

There much more to this. Don't have time right now.... Thanks

i hope this makes sense... sometimes the things i try to write don;t.... they are hard to understand.... or they come off as confused.. dyslexic... my fingers don;t always hit the right keys or in the right order.... ..... ... ..but other than reading it in the words spoken by jobs 3 friends... i don;t think i have ever heard someone say job had some "problem"..... some major sin.... and that was the reason for his suffering... ..

...scripture tells us in the first chapter of the book of job why job suffered..... satan challenged God to allow job to be tormented and said that if He did that job would "curse God to His face".. ....so God allowed it and job suffered but did not curse God... then satan moved the goal posts like he always does and suggested job should suffer physically to the point of death.... God allowed it and job still did not curse God or commit sin against God with his words.... ..scripture plainly says in the beginning that job was an upright man who eschewed evil....and that in all his arguments with his friends throughout the book when he was trying defend himself job did not sin with his lips...

but was there sin in jobs life?..... undoubtably.....  there is sin the life of every mortal human being alive or that has ever lived.... and yes there is always cause and effect in regards to most things we do.... everything we do carries the possibility of consequences.... but is sin always the direct cause of whatever bad things happen to us?.... in the case of job scripture says it was not... and that in reality if we all suffered in this life in direct proportion to the sin in our lives... and were it not for the mercy of God.... we would all deserve what job suffered and much worse.... none of us would be left alive.....

in luke chapter 13 Jesus deals with people who... like the 3 friends of job.... believed bad things happen in this life in direct proportion to sin...

"there were present at that season some that told him of the galilaeans, whose blood pilate had mingled with their sacrifices...... and Jesus answering said unto them, suppose ye that these galilaeans were sinners above all the galilaeans, because they suffered such things?....... ....I tell you, nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.........  ...or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in jerusalem?..... I tell you, nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish...." luke 13

and apparently the disciples were just as apt to believe suffering in this life was in direct proportion to a persons sin as others who lived at that time were....  but at least they ask Jesus about it rather than try to speak for Him.....

......and as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth..... ..and his disciples asked Him, saying, "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"........ ...... Jesus answered...."neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him"..... john 9; 1-3

and as far as preachers reading job 42; 1 through 6 and "declaring" job vindicated.... . read verse 42; 7.... it was God Himself who vindicated job and said job had "spoken of Him rightly"... then ordered jobs friends to repent and make amends because they had not.... i was taught that section of job 42; 1-6 was jobs confession... realizing that not only was he no better than any other person.. had no right to feel sorry for himself... but that in his attempts to defend himself from his friends accusations, he had been assuming wisdom above that which he actually knew.. .. like them, he had been trying to speak for God .. ..

but do we know of any other sin or offense against God job was guilty of?... does scripture tell us exactly when or how job came to know God?... or what his life was like prior to dedicating himself to God?..... job himself tells us that prior to God speaking to the group from a whirlwind he had only known about God through what others had told him... but job lived in a time when God still spoke directly to men... it was in the age prior to the written word.... and several thousand years before some 13th century monk carved scriptures up into chapter and verse thinking his tampering would make the bible easier to navigate or understand.. .... so it;s very likely that some of the people who instructed job about God had actually spoken directly to God Himself or heard Him speak.... ..did he miss something they tried to teach him?... we don;t know.... but in an age that didn;t have the written word like we do today job still appeared to know something throughout the book, that escapes many christians today even though we not only have the written word but also the benefit of 13th century editing to make study of the bible easier......   the just live by faith...

i am not totally against the chapter and verse divisions in scripture... i make use of them myself.... but i don;t totally rely on them or consider my study or use of scripture constrained or governed by them....and i remind myself that the law of cause and effect applies to the work of that monk just like it applies to everything else..... while the chapter and verse divisions made study of scripture easier it also enabled the future cults who would look on chapter and verse divisions as if they were inspired.. and use those chopped up chapters and numbered verses to take scripture out of context... ..but it;s biggest problem it presents to most christians... outside the cults... was that it keeps them from reading the bible as it was meant to be read.... by entire chapters and complete stories and accounts.... not chopped up into selected segments....

but back to job and peoples sin always being directly responsible for their own suffering..... (which by default would imply their righteousness is always responsible for their prosperity, health and success....).... i absolutely reject the health and wealth focused - "prosperity" gospel.... i know it;s a popular concept among many evangelicals claiming they are trying to encourage others through the "success" of their own righteous lifestyle... ...(more likely it;s just an excuse they use to justify their own excesses to those less fortunate, and make themselves feel good)..... .. either way it does more to glorify man than it does to glorify God...... by drawing attention to the prosperous person telling others that his health and success is due to his relationship with Jesus or his understanding of God..... while at the same time it disparages and even condems others who might not be as successful or as fortunate by telling them their misery is due to sin or at the very least a lack of the high quality righteousness the more successful person practices... ....Jesus Himself told us those that do that kind of thing have their reward.... the glory and self satisfaction they receive by making others feel they are lesser christians than themselves is all the reward they will ever have...

but that being said i do believe the suffering of others can be learned from... ...though it;s not scripture i am fond of the saying "experience is a tough school... the fool can learn from no other"...

but who learned from what i suffered?.... was there a point in it?... ..people went to jail because of it... . i spent the first 10 years of my life in the company of.. and under the complete control of... some of the most vile and disgusting people on the face of the earth.. ...and i hope you won;t try to tell me.. like so many on the old forum did... that there are much worse people out there and i didn;t have it so bad... ..... ..parts of my body were ruined and surgically removed before i was even old enough to know what they were meant for.... ..was diagnosed as a schizophrenic before i knew what that meant... ..all i knew is i kept hearing things and sometimes seeing things nobody else heard or saw... things that made no sense.. repetitions of things other people said... images of things they had done around me... things that happened around me... ..sometimes even now when meds stop working or other outside things have negative effects i go through periods of nightmares then wake up still seeing the images that were in my head... and don;t know if i am awake or still dreaming... ...there is much more that still happens beyond my control even to this day that i won;t go into... ...

but my question is... what did i do beyond being born in sin and with a nature to sin, as all mankind is.. to deserve that?.... ..not saying i didn;t deserve it or that fairness would have demanded i had a better childhood... ..no... the question i ask myself most often is why did i survive it?... while other kids in my situation did not?... why was i given a way out while they were trapped and eventually died from the abuse?.... i was saved at age 8... some of them were too..... what could any of us have learned at that age that would have helped us avoid anything?.. ..we were totally under the control of others.... .the only hope any of us had was the grace and mercy of God.. .....Jesus means a lot to me... like i said before - more than i can express or put into words... ... ....but i will never say or allow anyone else to say Jesus must have meant more to me than He did to them.. and that;s why i survived and they did not... or that i was smarter and wiser than they were... ..learned faster..... or got out because i wanted it more than they did.. (a concept many christians are fond of teaching).... because only God knows what is true in that regard.. .. ....

but i will say that everyone who suffers is an opportunity for christians to show mercy and compassion.... true grace in a manner that glorifies God....... the same mercy grace and compassion God showed to them, and scripture says God expects of them.... to show compassion and give of themselves without passing judgement.... expecting nothing in return... scripture teaches and commands us to do that..... ...some christians obey that commandment of God and kids like i was benefit from it... .others work in ways that benefits and glorifies themselves.... and people are left to rot or to die.... ..i see the friends of job as starting out like that with him...  given a chance to show compassion but choosing instead to pass judgment on him while attempting to glorify themselves.. ..but in the end they learned the error of their ways when God spoke to all of them out of the whirlwind.... ...they were given a chance to repent.. ... offered redemption in spite of themselves.. not because of... ... and God was glorified....

(06-09-2021, 04:00 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]i hope this makes sense... sometimes the things i try to write don;t.... they are hard to understand.... or they come off as confused.. dyslexic... my fingers don;t always hit the right keys or in the right order.... ..... ... ..but other than reading it in the words spoken by jobs 3 friends... i don;t think i have ever heard someone say job had some "problem"..... some major sin.... and that was the reason for his suffering... ..

Job issue wasn't one of specfic sin. It was his lack of understanding, his lack of personal experience and his lack of long suffering. Not that I'm any better. I didn't say that Job had a sin problem in the beginning. However, he eventually had a sin problem toward the end of his journey. 

You see there comes a time in every believer's life that we go through what Peter called the "fiery trial" of faith. That trial isn't to vindicate God. God doesn't need vindicating. That trial is for us. It shows US what God already knows about us. Things we don't know about ourselves.

When Job was blessing God with his lips, inside Job was dying. Overcome with pain, fear and anguish. I've been there. I've done it myself. It is one thing to say the right things.... and another to actually FEEL GOOD about them. 

Which is why Job said....

Job 42:3  ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 

We are good at saying things we really don't mean. We are good at saying things that we don't understand fully. We just know the ramifications of what our words often mean......

(06-09-2021, 04:00 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]and as far as preachers reading job 42; 1 through 6 and "declaring" job vindicated.... . read verse 42; 7.... it was God Himself who vindicated job and said job had "spoken of Him rightly"... 

In what Job had just said to God. Not everything he had said earlier. Something Job's friends hadn't done. They hadn't confessed their lack of understanding or self guilt. 

(06-09-2021, 04:00 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]then ordered jobs friends to repent and make amends because they had not.... i was taught that section of job 42; 1-6 was jobs confession... realizing that not only was he no better than any other person.. had no right to feel sorry for himself... but that in his attempts to defend himself from his friends accusations, he had been assuming wisdom above that which he actually knew.. .. like them, he had been trying to speak for God .. ..

Jobs confession is centered around getting to know God personally. To which he replied....

Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. 

Question, do you believe Job felt good about himself before this happened? Do you believe that Job felt he really knew God already? Do you believe that Job felt good about where he was already in relationship to God?

I do. There is one that hard to often see in the words of men. You just can't see what a person is really thinking. How a person is really feeling. 

Which is why the average Christian tries to make Job into some superhuman hero of faith. They want to do what Job did and Job didn't get it absolutely right himself. He was LEARNING things he didn't know through the entire process. 

One more question. I'll ask and then answer it myself.........

Do you want to find meaning in your suffering?  I did. I have. I try avoiding such things anymore. I try to find more meaning in the suffering of Jesus Christ than my own. Now that is easier said than done. I admit it but I do mean it. Even when I fail to be consistent with it......

I hope I'm being productive in what I say. I enjoy conversations such as this. It is so rare that you can have one this day with such a reasonable person!

back to job.... his 3 friends... and to try and answer your other question.... (as best i can)... ....

do i believe job was happy with himself?..... yes.... most rich men are very happy with themselves.... which is why their misery comes out so much more amplified when their situation gets reversed.... ..... and i also think he believed he knew God already and was happy about his relationship with God... but did job think that was enough?... or was he striving to learn more and know God better before this happened? ... i don;t know... ....all i do know is that God spoke very highly of job.... and in job 2 after job had suffered the first round of calamities He told satan job had been made to suffer without cause.... 

now it;s obvious his 3 friends thought they knew all they ever needed to know about God... .. considered themselves qualified to teach on the subject..... and their continuous insistence that job must have done something wrong to cause God to punish him.. plus the further physical misery job was put through.. caused him to fall into a deep depression and begin saying things he should have not said..... some would say he developed a bad attitude.... ...yet with all that.. ..assuming he could speak for God like his friends were doing... his bad attitude and all... .. jobs faith in God and dedication to Him remained intact... .........how many people professing christianity can that be said of?... ....but is job a superhuman hero of the faith?.... in my opinion no mortal human being is.... .. the most faithful among us now and among who have ever lived is still a sinner saved by grace... and the best we can hope for when we stand before God at the end of our lives is to be call a good and faithful servant.....

but on a quick side note and question..... what of jobs family?..... his children.... and his servants?........ most of them were killed when this whole thing started..... ...if job was somehow responsible for the calamity that came upon his whole family and his lack of understanding was why God allowed it to happen..... then what were his children and servants guilty of?.... ....did they have sins they were being punished for?.... yes job learned from the experience but did all those people die just so job could increase his understanding and have a moment of self reflection and confession?... ..to teach him something?....... in job 2; 3 God says job was made to suffer "without cause"...but we know as Jesus said when he spoke of the man born blind that the works of God and his glory were revealed by the ordeal.... ...my contention is that sometimes the things that happen us... both good and bad... have nothing to do with us.... or with anything we did or didn;t do... or anything we failed to understand... they happen so the works and glory of God can be revealed.... . ..

.

but to the point of the op.... ...your op in this thread troubled me because as i told you in a pm it appeared to support the health and wealth - prosperity gospel teachings.... the idea that God rewards the righteous with success and physical well being.... a cult religious ideology that has actually been around for thousands of years... and which job 3 friends could have been the founders of.... 

.... i do not deny that in some cases God may very well reward some christians with better health and prosperity... maybe even wealth and comfort..... as He sees fit and according to His purpose in their lives........ but that is not the point and purpose of the christian life.. .. and does God reward everyone that way who loves Jesus and obeys Him?..

...the way the op was written indicated you believe He does.... ....  

Quote:praise_yeshua

Jesus means health.
Jesus means peace.
Jesus means love.
Jesus means joy.
Jesus means comfort. 
Jesus means everlasting life.......

Not just for me. For everyone..... equally.... and to the same degree regardless of when, what, where and why. 

if you meant that Jesus means everlasting life ...equally and to the same degree regardless of other circumstances.... then i  absolutely agree.... but as an entire statement including all of the above,.. and as something that all christians experience  all the time.. and unconditionally..... it immediately came to my mind that the post could have been written by any one of jobs 3 friends.... .. possibly even job himself prior to being put through his fiery trial of faith....... his downward spiral into depression throughout the book of job was no doubt caused because he realized he had lost the first 5 things on your list yet could not recall what sin he had committed, or what it was he had done wrong to anger God....  ..his 3 friends told him he must have done something or else he would still have all those things..... ...the thought that his calamity was a trial of his faith never crossed their minds... or even crossed his own mind until later when God spoke to them..

in another thread you wrote that as christians we are to deny ourselves..... .yet those who follow and teach the prosperity gospel do anything but deny themselves...  they are very proud of themselves and proud of the way they think God has rewarded them with success for getting everything about being a christian right.... they love to tout their successes to those less fortunate and to try and make themselves feel superior by making others feel like lesser christians...... ....the thought that some people might go through a fiery trial of faith... or that they might one day go through one themselves.. ..maybe 2 or three.. or even a continuous one for no obvious reason at all.... never seems to cross their minds either......  and the thing i have witnessed myself on multiple occasions... is that when the people who have taught the prosperity gospel, and also those who have listened to them and bought into it... finally do end up facing calamity or a fiery trial of their faith... they go even deeper into depression than job did.... . they often do denounce their faith and do a 180 degree turn about.. telling everyone they had been wrong to even believe in God... and teaching things that are completely apostate....

all through the new testament Jesus Himself taught us that as His followers we would be hated... even persecuted for His name sake.... throughout history true followers of Christ have been imprisoned... held captive in conditions that destroyed their health... even tortured and killed... ...others have been denied the right to do work and support themselves and their families... or have had their property and means of comfort taken from them by governments and powerful people ....... and not because they had committed any sin or failed to love Jesus to the proper degree or because they lacked understanding of who they were in relation to Christ....  .....it was all done because the world.. who satan controls... hated them.......

and.... the devil also hates us.... ..he works constantly to destroy... and not alone either... he has plenty of help..... ..... someone once wrote that the greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world he didn;t exist.... .i think he convinced a lot of christians of that too.... ....

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]back to job.... his 3 friends... and to try and answer your other question.... (as best i can)... ....

do i believe job was happy with himself?..... yes.... most rich men are very happy with themselves.... which is why their misery comes out so much more amplified when their situation gets reversed.... ..... and i also think he believed he knew God already and was happy about his relationship with God... but did job think that was enough?... or was he striving to learn more and know God better before this happened? ... i don;t know... ....all i do know is that God spoke very highly of job.... and in job 2 after job had suffered the first round of calamities He told satan job had been made to suffer without cause.... 

We've all suffered without a direct cause of our own making. Never so much as Jesus Christ but we've all been a part of many different things in our lives that weren't of our own making. There is this battle in the narrative between human thought and perceptions vs God's purpose in His own actions. I believe if you look @ God's personal action in the narrative, you will find much of it mirrors what Jesus Christ experienced in the Incarnation. There was a time that I never saw such things in the Scriptures. Mainly because I never stopped thinking about myself. We want to see ourselves in everything around us. Many times we do, however, there are many times we only find the "moral of the story" if we start thinking outside ourselves. 

Which why I try to say often that we shouldn't necessarily search the Scriptures to find ourselves. It is THE message of Jesus Christ to humanity. We should search for Jesus. In doing so, it is unmistakable fact that we will find ourselves. 

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]now it;s obvious his 3 friends thought they knew all they ever needed to know about God... .. considered themselves qualified to teach on the subject..... and their continuous insistence that job must have done something wrong to cause God to punish him.. plus the further physical misery job was put through.. caused him to fall into a deep depression and begin saying things he should have not said..... some would say he developed a bad attitude.... ...yet with all that.. ..assuming he could speak for God like his friends were doing... his bad attitude and all... .. jobs faith in God and dedication to Him remained intact... .........how many people professing christianity can that be said of?... ....but is job a superhuman hero of the faith?.... in my opinion no mortal human being is.... .. the most faithful among us now and among who have ever lived is still a sinner saved by grace... and the best we can hope for when we stand before God at the end of our lives is to be call a good and faithful servant.....

I somewhat disagree I know this is largely the main teaching that people come away from reading Job but I believe you hear from Job's friends the very battle that Job was already facing inside. The words he was internalizing to what was going on around him. Words he had heard before. I don't believe was anything new. It was natural for Job to heed what he been taught from others before this ever happened to him personally. 

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]but on a quick side note and question..... what of jobs family?..... his children.... and his servants?........ most of them were killed when this whole thing started..... ...if job was somehow responsible for the calamity that came upon his whole family and his lack of understanding was why God allowed it to happen.....  then what were his children and servants guilty of?.... ....did they have sins they were being punished for?.... yes job learned from the experience but did all those people die just so job could increase his understanding and have a moment of self reflection and confession?... ..to teach him something?....... in job 2; 3 God says job was made to suffer "without cause"...but we know as Jesus said when he spoke of the man born blind that the works of God and his glory were revealed by the ordeal.... ...my contention is that sometimes the things that happen us... both good and bad... have nothing to do with us.... or with anything we did or didn;t do... or anything we failed to understand...  they happen so the works and glory of God can be revealed....  . ..

That is a great question and one worthy of the best answer a human being can give. Job maybe the oldest written record of God that has survived to our day. However, it is LONG after the fall of humanity. A time where God personally and repeatedly intervened, fellowshipped and taught the descendants of Adam. Over and over and over again, God repeatedly in Grace and Mercy dealt kindly with humanity..... to only find that the generations of men forgot Him. 

You remember what you REALLY care about. I"ve told my children over and over again throughout their lives, you will know what you want to KNOW in this life. Jesus said.... those that SEEK.... FIND...... Those that hunger and thirst of righteousness SHALL be filled. 

We are lazy people. We pay others to seek for us. We pay others to believe for us. Most never check behind anyone to see if what they're saying is true or not. 

I would "bet" that Job had never significantly questioned what he heard about God from others. I know this going sound bad but I'm going to say it anyways. Was Job more concerned with making sure His family benefitted from his actions than He was with really knowing God or pleasing God personally? 

This life is designed to leave us empty. This life is designed to leave us wanting. This life is designed to give success to hard working/dedicated people only to watch as what they've gathered slip away from them...... this life is designed to show just how powerless we are to help ourselves. 

I know God doesn't need me. I know God doesn't need anyone, but I can't help but believe God is looking for some to sincerely desire and seek what He wants. 

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]but to the point of the op.... ...your op in this thread troubled me because as i told you in a pm it appeared to support the health and wealth - prosperity gospel teachings.... the idea that God rewards the righteous with success and physical well being.... a cult religious ideology that has actually been around for thousands of years... and which job 3 friends could have been the founders of.... 

.... i do not deny that in some cases God may very well reward some christians with better health and prosperity... maybe even wealth and comfort..... as He sees fit and according to His purpose in their lives........ but that is not the point and purpose of the christian life.. .. and does God reward everyone that way who loves Jesus and obeys Him?..

...the way the op was written indicated you believe He does.... ....  

I've had more success in my life than I have spoken about publically. It is not something I do. I don't brag and I'm not going to start now nor be a "fool in boasting". However, I have repeatedly said more and more throughout my life that the reason I am blessed is more about Jesus loving and taking care of His own than it is about my faithfulness. The first few times I started arguing with someone about "tithing"... I was told I was cursed. However, I've been nothing but blessed since. The cursing I've experienced has come from men. Not God. 

In my OP, I was trying to indicating that anything good I have or could ever wish will be because of Jesus Christ. For me to live is Christ. That brings good things and sometimes bad things in suffering. 

Yes. I believe if you know Jesus Christ, you will find peace when you shouldn't find peace. You will find comfort when you shouldn't be comforted. You will find real and lasting joy. That ONLY comes from Jesus Christ. 

Even those bankrupt and destitute can find these things in Jesus Christ. 

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]if you meant that Jesus means everlasting life ...equally and to the same degree regardless of other circumstances.... then i  absolutely agree.... but as an entire statement including all of the above,.. and as something that all christians experience  all the time.. and unconditionally..... it immediately came to my mind that the post could have been written by any one of jobs 3 friends.... .. possibly even job himself prior to being put through his fiery trial of faith....... his downward spiral into depression throughout the book of job was no doubt caused because he realized he had lost the first 5 things on your list yet could not recall what sin he had committed, or what it was he had done wrong to anger God....  ..his 3 friends told him he must have done something or else he would still have all those things..... ...the thought that his calamity was a trial of his faith never crossed their minds... or even crossed his own mind until later when God spoke to them..

It never crossed their mind because they didn't know any better. Again. A trial of faith isn't about God. It is about us. It reveals what we are to US. 

I can tell you that where Job ended up was MORE pleasing to God than where he began. Job got to learn more about himself. Job got to get intouch emotionally with God at a level that he had never been before. The words he spoke..... HE ended up LIVING. 

Job's 3 friends didn't know any of this themselves. Which is why they NEEDED TO KNOW WHAT JOB KNEW. Job also needed to realize that He was not better than them. This life in Jesus Christ is filled with abandoning what we think we know to embrace what God teaches us personally. 

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]in another thread you wrote that as christians we are to deny ourselves..... .yet those who follow and teach the prosperity gospel do anything but deny themselves...  they are very proud of themselves and proud of the way they think God has rewarded them with success for getting everything about being a christian right.... they love to tout their successes to those less fortunate and to try and make themselves feel superior by making others feel like lesser christians...... ....the thought that some people might go through a fiery trial of faith... or that they might one day go through one themselves.. ..maybe 2 or three.. or even a continuous one for no obvious reason at all.... never seems to cross their minds either......  and the thing i have witnessed myself on multiple occasions... is that when the people who have taught the prosperity gospel, and also those who have listened to them and bought into it... finally do end up facing calamity or a fiery trial of their faith... they go even deeper into depression than job did.... . they often do denounce their faith and do a 180 degree turn about.. telling everyone they had been wrong to even believe in God... and teaching things that are completely apostate....

I'm the beneficiary of endless blessings from God. I don't believe everyone in Christ are the same but they do have the same access to blessings. Some things are blessings because of circumstances. Somethings are blessings because of Divine intervention. Some things are bad because of the same. In ALL OF it, I can have peace, joy and comfort. When I don't have these, it isn't God's fault. It is mine. 

Added.... I do realize there are physical condition that render some with condition wherein it is impossible to find comfort. Many will face these throughout their lives. I'm not trying to create superhuman Christians in doctrine. Just witnessing to the fact that absent these conditions, there should be joy, peace and comfort through the Holy Spirit given to God's own.

(06-12-2021, 06:02 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]all through the new testament Jesus Himself taught us that as His followers we would be hated... even persecuted for His name sake.... throughout history true followers of Christ have been imprisoned... held captive in conditions that destroyed their health... even tortured and killed... ...others have been denied the right to do work and support themselves and their families... or have had their property and means of comfort taken from them by governments and powerful people ....... and not because they had committed any sin or failed to love Jesus to the proper degree or because they lacked understanding of who they were in relation to Christ....  .....it was all done because the world.. who satan controls... hated them.......

and.... the devil also hates us.... ..he works constantly to destroy... and not alone either... he has plenty of help..... ..... someone once wrote that the greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world he didn;t exist.... .i think he convinced a lot of christians of that too.... ....

Absolutely. However, I think it fair to say that most people don't suffer very much for the name of Christ. That might change tomorrow. If it does, the same God today will be the same tomorrow. Loving, comforting and pleasing His own.... FOREVER without end. In this, I rejoice and praise God for our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Thank you!

Quote:praise_yeshua

I'm the beneficiary of endless blessings from God. I don't believe everyone in Christ are the same but they do have the same access to blessings. Some things are blessings because of circumstances. Somethings are blessings because of Divine intervention. Some things are bad because of the same. In ALL OF it, I can have peace, joy and comfort. When I don't have these, it isn't God's fault. It is mine. 

Added.... I do realize there are physical condition that render some with condition wherein it is impossible to find comfort. Many will face these throughout their lives. I'm not trying to create superhuman Christians in doctrine. Just witnessing to the fact that absent these conditions, there should be joy, peace and comfort through the Holy Spirit given to God's own.

i appreciate that you added that last paragraph here..... ..and also that you omitted the word health in the list of guaranteed blessings you put in the paragraph above it.......

as you may know i have a number of both physical.. emotional.. and mental situations that can cause me enormous discomfort.. ..a few things missing on the inside or which no longer work... ..and emotional barrier caused by trauma that i still don;t understand, but which doctors say they do.... and schizophrenia... ..if don;t take meds my brain circuits replay sounds and voices in my head.. mostly from memory of disturbing things i heard in the past.. ..other things as well..... . and of course the meds cause very uncomfortable side effects but not taking them causes actions and reactions on my part that i don;t want to go through and nobody wants to see.... ....and like you eluded to further up in your post, none of it was of my own doing... .. but there was a direct cause... 

nobody has said it was fault that it happened.... (except for calvinists who say it was because i am not elect)..... . but i have been told the reason the effects of the abuse continue IS my fault... many times... and by many different proponents of prosperity gospel ideology.... ..sometimes they were subtle almost friendly about it... and sometimes they were abrasive....but the message was always the same....  they tell me they were blessed with this, that, and the other thing... and it was all because they had a closer walk with Jesus than i have had, and others like me, not equally blessed as they were, had... or they had walked with Jesus further than i and all the others did... ..

i even heard a speaker in a young adult sunday school class once chide members of his class because some of them had children that were not healthy... or were even born with birth defects.... he even told them some of the were eating bologna when they could be eating steak...(his very words)... in short he told them for almost 30 minutes that the quality of their lifestyles did not match up to his.... and it was all because he loved Jesus more than they did.... and walked with Him more perfectly.....

you have not said any of that... but you did say this.....

Quote:praise_yeshua

I've had more success in my life than I have spoken about publically. It is not something I do. I don't brag and I'm not going to start now nor be a "fool in boasting". However, I have repeatedly said more and more throughout my life that the reason I am blessed is more about Jesus loving and taking care of His own than it is about my faithfulness. The first few times I started arguing with someone about "tithing"... I was told I was cursed. However, I've been nothing but blessed since. The cursing I've experienced has come from men. Not God. 

so what is to be said of those of us who have not experienced the same blessings of success you mention above?......or the quality of health and comfort you mentioned earlier?..... .does it means Jesus loves us any less?.... or could it mean ..as i heard one prosperity preacher say before... we are not His own?.....

men cursed you because you disagreed with them on interpretations of scriptures... but you have said that curse came from men not from God.... ....and that;s true... if God cursed everyone who misinterpreted scripture and got something wrong, we would all be cursed.... but being cursed for the continuation and effects of a sin committed against you by others only comes from.... never from God.... yet sometimes christians try to make us believe that it IS from God..... ..and that it;s because we lack faithfulness.. or the proper understanding of love... .. 

like i said before... i hope i have badly misunderstood what you wrote.... if i have then i apologize....
 ..
it might be the first time i have misunderstood something you wrote..... a few years ago it seemed we had a very different conversation along these lines....... .


https://www.fightingfundamentalforums.co...d-223.html

was i wrong?.... or did something change?.....

(06-19-2021, 08:07 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:praise_yeshua

I'm the beneficiary of endless blessings from God. I don't believe everyone in Christ are the same but they do have the same access to blessings. Some things are blessings because of circumstances. Somethings are blessings because of Divine intervention. Some things are bad because of the same. In ALL OF it, I can have peace, joy and comfort. When I don't have these, it isn't God's fault. It is mine. 

Added.... I do realize there are physical condition that render some with condition wherein it is impossible to find comfort. Many will face these throughout their lives. I'm not trying to create superhuman Christians in doctrine. Just witnessing to the fact that absent these conditions, there should be joy, peace and comfort through the Holy Spirit given to God's own.

i appreciate that you added that last paragraph here..... ..and also that you omitted the word health in the list of guaranteed blessings you put in the paragraph above it.......

as you may know i have a number of both physical.. emotional.. and mental situations that can cause me enormous discomfort.. ..a few things missing on the inside or which no longer work... ..and emotional barrier caused by trauma that i still don;t understand, but which doctors say they do.... and schizophrenia... ..if don;t take meds my brain circuits replay sounds and voices in my head.. mostly from memory of disturbing things i heard in the past.. ..other things as well..... . and of course the meds cause very uncomfortable side effects but not taking them causes actions and reactions on my part that i don;t want to go through and nobody wants to see.... ....and like you eluded to further up in your post, none of it was of my own doing... .. but there was a direct cause... 

nobody has said it was fault that it happened.... (except for calvinists who say it was because i am not elect)..... . but i have been told the reason the effects of the abuse continue IS my fault... many times... and by many different proponents of prosperity gospel ideology.... ..sometimes they were subtle almost friendly about it... and sometimes they were abrasive....but the message was always the same....  they tell me they were blessed with this, that, and the other thing... and it was all because they had a closer walk with Jesus than i have had, and others like me, not equally blessed as they were, had... or they had walked with Jesus further than i and all the others did... ..

i even heard a speaker in a young adult sunday school class once chide members of his class because some of them had children that were not healthy... or were even born with birth defects.... he even told them some of the were eating bologna when they could be eating steak...(his very words)... in short he told them for almost 30 minutes that the quality of their lifestyles did not match up to his.... and it was all because he loved Jesus more than they did.... and walked with Him more perfectly.....

you have not said any of that... but you did say this.....

Quote:praise_yeshua

I've had more success in my life than I have spoken about publically. It is not something I do. I don't brag and I'm not going to start now nor be a "fool in boasting". However, I have repeatedly said more and more throughout my life that the reason I am blessed is more about Jesus loving and taking care of His own than it is about my faithfulness. The first few times I started arguing with someone about "tithing"... I was told I was cursed. However, I've been nothing but blessed since. The cursing I've experienced has come from men. Not God. 

so what is to be said of those of us who have not experienced the same blessings of success you mention above?......or the quality of health and comfort you mentioned earlier?..... .does it means Jesus loves us any less?.... or could it mean ..as i heard one prosperity preacher say before... we are not His own?.....

men cursed you because you disagreed with them on interpretations of scriptures... but you have said that curse came from men not from God.... ....and that;s true... if God cursed everyone who misinterpreted scripture and got something wrong, we would all be cursed.... but being cursed for the continuation and effects of a sin committed against you by others only comes from.... never from God.... yet sometimes christians try to make us believe that it IS from God..... ..and that it;s because we lack faithfulness.. or the proper understanding of love... .. 

like i said before... i hope i have badly misunderstood what you wrote.... if i have then i apologize....
 ..
it might be the first time i have misunderstood something you wrote..... a few years ago it seemed we had a very different conversation along these lines....... .


https://www.fightingfundamentalforums.co...d-223.html

was i wrong?.... or did something change?.....

My faithfulness isn't very faithful. I fail over and over again. 

I don't speak for God for you. I would never do that. You're not my servant. I'm not your servant. 

I know you face unique circumstances where you have physical issues that result in physical responses that produce emotional responses as well. There is no doubt there are times that you have control over your emotions and times you do not. Mental health is often interchangeable with physical health. I know that is your situation and I'm NOT....in any way trying to directly challenge your theology concerning such. 

I do believe that you've obviously asked God for peace and God has given it to you. Peace goes a long way in the "health" of an individual. While you may not have all you want or even need, the Presence of God in your comments indicates God is with you. 

I do try to challenge perspective. I constant challenge my own perspective. Reasoning the Scriptures and their application in our lives is essential to our own personal growth in Jesus Christ. You never have to listen to anyone other than Jesus Christ. Find peace in what He declares directly in your life. 

I do believe I've been accurate in what I've said about Job, Jonah and others. I believe I've been accurate in what I've said about myself. God only know if any of this has any direct application to you or not. I don't speak for God. I simply try to recognize what the Scriptures teach and apply them given my own experience. God knows you better than I ever will and that is what I desire for you. That you know Him more and more each day. I desire that for myself.