No one has to choose either of them.... but it seems like most peoples feel they must chose one or the other.
Very seldom does any systematic theological belief accurate portray every aspect of the Truth. It just doesn't. Most all systems are flawed because they were created by man. All have weaknesses.
Why do you feel like you must choose between the two?
I must admit.... In my life.... If I'm given two choices, I often look for a third or a fourth or maybe a fifth option.
(05-25-2016, 05:55 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]No one has to choose either of them.... but it seems like most peoples feel they must chose one or the other.
Very seldom does any systematic theological belief accurate portray every aspect of the Truth. It just doesn't. Most all systems are flawed because they were created by man. All have weaknesses.
Why do you feel like you must choose between the two?
I must admit. I my life. If I'm given two choices, I often look for a third or a fourth or maybe a fifth option.
i agree...... i don;t feel the need to choose...... .. i have faith that God will keep His promises and that He is able to do everything He says He can do ...... i don;t feel it;s even possible for me to understand how He does those things.... and i don;t believe He expects me to try to understand it... and i especially don;t see it as my christian duty to carry on a campaign against other christians declaring that i know how God does what He does.... while insisting that they are all wrong... ignorant... (or stupid).... for not accepting my theory on it...... ..... i believe to try and create dogma out of either position is attempting to force an infinite God into the mold of a very limited human logic....... ........ there are things God gave us the ability to understand and others He simply told us to trust Him for........ i believe on those matters faith is enough......
It's because of what Scripture teaches. If you want to follow what the Bible teaches of what is part of God's character, how God operates and what brings Him the most glory. You have to follow Scripture!
In the Cal/Arm debate; you have two choices. Either God works things out on His own choosing; or He is dependent on man. There is no third fourth or fifth choice. Anything else is heresy. Your Open Theism followed you here huh, PY?
(05-25-2016, 08:05 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: [ -> ]It's because of what Scripture teaches. If you want to follow what the Bible teaches of what is part of God's character, how God operates and what brings Him the most glory. You have to follow Scripture!
In the Cal/Arm debate; you have two choices. Either God works things out on His own choosing; or He is dependent on man. There is no third fourth or fifth choice. Anything else is heresy. Your Open Theism followed you here huh, PY?
There you go throwing around the "heresy" charge again. I've told you many times that I'm not an open theist. I share some beliefs with them but I reject just as many.
Quote:Either God works things out on His own choosing; or He is dependent on man
If God, a freewill being, wants a relationship with his freewill creation..... then that relationship is dependent upon man's choice.
Either way, I haven't seen you present any evidence to show that the choice is either Calvinism or Arminianism.
I'm not looking to have a "heresy" contest with you or anyone. I'm just looking for an intellectual challenge.
(05-25-2016, 06:51 PM)aleshanee Wrote: [ -> ] (05-25-2016, 05:55 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]No one has to choose either of them.... but it seems like most peoples feel they must chose one or the other.
Very seldom does any systematic theological belief accurate portray every aspect of the Truth. It just doesn't. Most all systems are flawed because they were created by man. All have weaknesses.
Why do you feel like you must choose between the two?
I must admit. I my life. If I'm given two choices, I often look for a third or a fourth or maybe a fifth option.
i agree...... i don;t feel the need to choose...... .. i have faith that God will keep His promises and that He is able to do everything He says He can do ...... i don;t feel it;s even possible for me to understand how He does those things.... and i don;t believe He expects me to try to understand it... and i especially don;t see it as my christian duty to carry on a campaign against other christians declaring that i know how God does what He does.... while insisting that they are all wrong... ignorant... (or stupid).... for not accepting my theory on it...... ..... i believe to try and create dogma out of either position is attempting to force an infinite God into the mold of a very limited human logic....... ........ there are things God gave us the ability to understand and others He simply told us to trust Him for........ i believe on those matters faith is enough......
I agree completely with what you've said. We can ONLY go by what God has revealed to us through the Scriptures. Coupled with Godly reasoning!
There are several times throughout the Scriptures that God references the word "reason".
Cal/Arm debates are rarely (if ever) productive. Even the Puritan William Gurnall (Puritans were primarily if not wholly Calvinist, IIRC) basically considered arguing about it as a work of the devil. I forget his exact words, but that was his position in "The Christian In Complete Armour" subtitled "Of the Saints’ War against the Devil", a very large book (split into two books when I bought them).
I've argued about the subject for years, so the devil has gotten enough work out of me already. I will defend the honor of God's sovereignty if pushed, but my experience has been that nobody ever changes their minds.
I call/called you in the past an open theist for the very fact that at about a year ago on the other forum you posted an article from Greg Boyd to back your position on a discussion were having. It was about God's sovereignty and you posted Boyd's article which pretty much denied it. You told us you agreed with it.
I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism in favor of Biblical theology.
(05-25-2016, 10:26 PM)Mojo Rison Wrote: [ -> ]I call/called you in the past an open theist for the very fact that at about a year ago on the other forum you posted an article from Greg Boyd to back your position on a discussion were having. It was about God's sovereignty and you posted Boyd's article which pretty much denied it. You told us you agreed with it.
I believe I said I didn't agree completely with everything it said. I think I gave a percentage. I've never agreed with Boyd completely. I have said that I believe there are few that can really challenge him in a debate.
If you want to defend God's Sovereignty, I'll participate. I have never reject that God has complete control over his creation. That God does exactly as He pleases with His creation.
Just start or thread or I will. Just let me know. Thanks.
(05-25-2016, 09:24 PM)The Rogue Tomato Wrote: [ -> ]Cal/Arm debates are rarely (if ever) productive. Even the Puritan William Gurnall (Puritans were primarily if not wholly Calvinist, IIRC) basically considered arguing about it as a work of the devil. I forget his exact words, but that was his position in "The Christian In Complete Armour" subtitled "Of the Saints’ War against the Devil", a very large book (split into two books when I bought them).
I've argued about the subject for years, so the devil has gotten enough work out of me already. I will defend the honor of God's sovereignty if pushed, but my experience has been that nobody ever changes their minds.
I don't believe its the "work of the devil". I've seen those arguments used to get people to not consider anything different. I'm a firm believer that any belief should hold up to any challenge. I don't take the position that "that shouldn't be talked about".
I agree that most people don't change there mind, but some do. I've known a few that did. I changed my mind. I started out a Arminian. Switched between a few flavors of Calvinism. Ultimately, I decided to stop following what someone had to say about it and "get it myself". I developed a belief system of my own. I agree with many points from all sides.
I have been taught in the Arminian tradition. But when I read the Bible myself, I see the verses that Calvinists claim in their tradition. Frankly, I agree with aleshanee. We see through a glass darkly. 1Cor 13:12 describes exactly how I feel about the Calvinist/Arminian debate.
(05-25-2016, 11:47 PM)praise_yeshua Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that most people don't change there mind, but some do. I've known a few that did. I changed my mind. I started out a Arminian. Switched between a few flavors of Calvinism. Ultimately, I decided to stop following what someone had to say about it and "get it myself". I developed a belief system of my own. I agree with many points from all sides.
We both came to vastly different conclusions. And we both base our conclusions on the Bible. At least that's what I assume you mean when you say "get it myself".
Maybe you've read Calvin or Arminius or Augustine. I haven't, except to check to see if they actually said what someone claimed they said.
I came to my conclusions strictly from what the Bible says. Not what some preacher said. Not what a Christian brother or sister said. Not what Calvin, Arminius, Luther, Augustine, or anyone else said. I HAVE read Luther, but I read some of his works AFTER I had come to my conclusions.
So -- if we read the same Bible, how could you come to a different conclusion than mine? Indeed, how is it that Bible-believing Christians can disagree on anything if what the Bible says is crystal clear?
I don't think the Bible IS crystal clear, and I think that's deliberate on God's part.