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• Money and Ministry

  praise_yeshua > 07-18-2017, 02:22 PM

  I'm think of a man right now that is a somewhat talented minister. I wouldn't call us friends, I've "casually" known him from time to time over the years. At one time, he "pastored" the church I "joined" for little over a year.....20 plus years ago. I often think of him....
  
  I'm not being critical at all but when a "man" is involved in anything, you're going to find a "weakness" somewhere. We all have them. We all have our faults and our weaknesses. Some more than others. Some are often hidden from sight but they're there..... The Lord knows I have plenty myself.... but its imperative that we realize them. Not hide them as most everyone does. 
  
  Some of our faults/sins are more damaging than others. Some just hurt us and some hurt others.....
  
  This minister I have in mind has written a little book that many people would love to have. In fact, I've seen plenty of requests for just that. Many times these requests are ignored and there is a reason for it. It can be summed up in one phrase you'll find in the Scriptures. 
  
  " a laborer is worthy of his hire".
  
  Many could do more... but they're not getting anything out of it.....
  
  Oh. Yeah.... they'll say they're living for "heaven".... but they sure make choices based on who's paying.....

• RE: Money and Ministry

  lnf > 07-26-2017, 04:59 AM

  I'm not sure I understand the intent of your post.  
  
  Do you think the "Pastor Author" should offer his book for free?
  
  I wonder if your post includes folks like me:  I work full time for my church as Finance Director.  I am paid a salary.  Do you think I should volunteer my time?  
  
  I can tell you that if I were a volunteer, I would need a full time (outside) job to pay my bills and take care of my family, which would  limit the hours I could devote to my church.
  
  FYI:  I take care of the finances for our church, our school (which is complicated by state audit requirements) and a large senior adult ministry.  My church thinks they get a great value from my labor vs. the salary I am paid...
  
  What say you?

• RE: Money and Ministry

  admin > 07-26-2017, 08:02 PM

  (07-26-2017, 04:59 AM)lnf Wrote: I'm not sure I understand the intent of your post.  
  
  Do you think the "Pastor Author" should offer his book for free?
  
  I wonder if your post includes folks like me:  I work full time for my church as Finance Director.  I am paid a salary.  Do you think I should volunteer my time?  
  
  I can tell you that if I were a volunteer, I would need a full time (outside) job to pay my bills and take care of my family, which would  limit the hours I could devote to my church.
  
  FYI:  I take care of the finances for our church, our school (which is complicated by state audit requirements) and a large senior adult ministry.  My church thinks they get a great value from my labor vs. the salary I am paid...
  
  What say you?

  
  That is a really good question. I have an answer. Its the truth but its going to hurt. Especially since you're involved to the level you are. I'm going to work my way backward in response....
  
  "Church" has become something it should have never become. "Church" is big business. In some "ministries" its bigger than others. This should have NEVER happened.
  
  The church has changed from being a largely volunteer run locally assembly to a large profit center based business masquerading as a "non profit"..... 
  
  That is the honest TRUTH.....
  
  
  When you have discussions like this, people get angry. You know why? Because its becomes more about the "job" than anything else. I know you probably draw a modest salary and you do so because you see yourself as being charitable in your position. You're probably happy to be part of the "ministry". You've always been an honest person that I can tell. A sincere, honest person. I believe if you be honest. You'd have to agree its not what it should be. 
  
  Peter warned about those who would make "merchandise" of the children of God..... and that is exactly what has happened. I could give many many examples of how the truth is perverted all in the name of "money" but I'll start with the one of the biggest issues.....
  
  The "Tithe". The "Tithe" has been sold as a means to support most any local church. Ministers continually lie to their congregations solely based on the real fear..... that if their church really knew the truth. Donations would suffer or stop completely. 
  
  That single lie has caused more perversion in the local church ministry than most others combined.... Lying. Over and Over and Over again. Robbing the local church of its wealth when most of its "ministers" should get a job and labor both in the ministry and work in the public sector. 
  
  My advice to you.... Get a full time job in the public sector and earn what you should earn. 
  
  I've never relied on the local church for a salary. Paul didn't either. Take his example to heart.....
  
  1Co 4:11  Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 
  1Co 4:12  And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 
  1Co 4:13  Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
  
  1Co 9:12  If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 
  
  1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 
  1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 
  1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 
  
  Pay attention to one of those last phrases...... The Gospel of Christ without charge........
  
  Wouldn't that be wonderful? To get the Gospel without someone asking for one penny in return?
  
  I don't often mention this and I can't remember the last time I ever did.... but of all the small things I've done in my life for Christ..... I can't remember a time I put a dollar value on any of it. I've never charged a dime that I can remember. 
  
  God's laborers should be volunteers. 
  
  Do you know why one of the best Bible software packages in the world is free? Its because of Matthew 10:8
  
  Mat_10:8  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
  
  No. No price tags. One of the earliest anonymous personas I used on the internet was "without_charge". I've tried to live my life based on this truth. I'm not looking for a full time "JOB" in the church. I've got one. I hope to keep till I can retire or die trying to keep it.
  
  I'll give you one more example. 
  
  Act 28:30  And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 
  Act 28:31  Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

• RE: Money and Ministry

  praise_yeshua > 07-28-2017, 03:47 PM

  (07-28-2017, 04:08 AM)aleshanee Wrote: i admit i haven;t studied this issue much..... mostly because the issue never came up in a discussion before where my opinion was sought.... .. but reading about it now it seems to me that paul was once again speaking soley for himself and expressing a personal conviction about how he should carry on his own ministry..... (as an evangelist more or less.... not the pastor of a church)...... and not so much demanding that all others in the ministry do as he does.... but admonishing those for whom his words apply to do so.... ...
  
  in 1st corinthians 9-7 he even says..... who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? .....  .......... .and later in 1st corinthians 9-18 admits that...  "even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." ..... then he goes on to explain why he goes above and beyond that in his own ministry.... ... ... 

  
  Paul set the example. He was making a logical argument that the apostles could have forced those they lead to support them. They didn't. In fact, Paul was including more than himself when he wrote 1 Cor 4. There are always things we can do, that doesn't mean we should. There are always consequences to choices. 
  
  1Cor 4:9  For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 
  
  Also, Peter said this...
  
  Act 3:6  Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 
  
  In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul also mentions Barnabas. Which at the time, may have been included in Paul's ministry. 
  
  Even so, Paul is the best example. A true example. 
  
  
  

  Quote:i can;t speak for all churches..... but i know that if the principles he outlines for himself were adopted in mine it would completely destroy the churches ministries and it;s ability to carry out the work of those ministries..... ..  

  
  
  I'm not against donations. However, when you start creating full time jobs for specific individuals, it creates problems. BIG problems. It starts creating empires. It creates situations were lies have to be told such as the "tithe". 
  
  If some "ministry" wants the tell the truth about God and money....... and then collect donations from individuals.... the right way.... and then take upon themselves outreaches that require full time efforts, then let them do it. 
  
  Till we get there.... (which will probably never happen).... I'm going to keep pointing out the lies that ministries tell their people to "make merchandise" of them. 
  
  
  The "big business" of modern ministries turning over millions and millions of dollars all in the name of "Christ" is nothing more than a perverted Gospel that turns God's children into nothing more than a "means to end..". Like cattle at the diary being "milked" till they can't produce anymore....
  
  We have to get the foundations right or the result will never be right. 
  
  I know what appear to be good "ministries" in my area. They do some very very good things. At the same time, it would horrify you know what they do to raise money. The raw monies they spend to generate donations is staggering. 
  
  You know who gets the REAL monies?
  
  Advertising firms, marketing managers and the "top dogs" drawing huge salaries to manage it all in the name of "Christ". 
  
  Modern ministries are "Big Business". We have no such examples in Scriptures. NOT ONE example that matches the models employed today all in the name of "Christ".

• RE: Money and Ministry

  aleshanee > 08-01-2017, 07:35 PM

  but unless a church never gets larger than small group meeting in the living or around the dining room table of somebodys residence..... or is conducted entirely over the internet..... . then it;s going to incure expenses that require some kind of collection of money to cover..... ..... and unless a church can meet in a public park or under a tent... always be assured of good weather or be comprised only of the types of people who can handle an outdoor environment regardless of the weather.... then buildings have to be either built or purchased... or some kind of suitable space rented.... ..and again depending on the climate the space will have to be either heated or air conditioned..... utility bills paid etc. ... ... someone will have to clean that space and maintain the heating and air conditioning.... make sure all the utilities are in working order..... and in most communities there are laws stating that a building has to pass some kind of safety code..... all these things, and probably many more i haven;t even thought of, require either a collection of money or that the church has some kind of monetary income to cover them all.... .... and unless it;s an extremely small church where a pastor could handle all that himself then he is going to hire people to oversee and manage those jobs and issues for him..... ..and if the church is big enough and has a large number of ministries some of those people he hires will have to be full time...... .. ... ... i don;t see it as a problem as long as the church remains a true church focused on serving God.......
  
  * * by the way..... .have you ever heard it said that everything a man says before the words.. "but"... and "however".... are usually lies and things he doesn;t really mean?.... you are criticizing even though you claim many times here that you are not...... . . and you are not alone in that... those with kitchen table churches love to criticize the bigger operations and tell them they are doing everything wrong.... especially in regards to teaching about paid pastors... and tithes and offerings... ...my question is why do i never see them out there on the street working with the homeless... .or taking food to the elderly shut ins...... or just simply being out and about from time to time spreading the gospel to the general public?..... ...oh that;s right.... i almost forgot.... they don;t believe in the concept of soul winning either... or of giving any of their hard earned money to down trodden..... that;s fine.... i am not the one who would tell them they have to.....they can do whatever they believe is right.... i generally only get involved with discussions on the subject when they start telling me i;m doing it wrong...... ...and the constant droning they do gets old after a time...... .

• RE: Money and Ministry

  praise_yeshua > 08-01-2017, 08:16 PM

  (08-01-2017, 07:35 PM)aleshanee Wrote: but unless a church never gets larger than small group meeting in the living or around the dining room table of somebodys residence..... or is conducted entirely over the internet..... . then it;s going to incure expenses that require some kind of collection of money to cover..... ..... and unless a church can meet in a public park or under a tent... always be assured of good weather or be comprised only of the types of people who can handle an outdoor environment regardless of the weather.... then buildings have to be either built or purchased... or some kind of suitable space rented.... ..and again depending on the climate the space will have to be either heated or airconditioned..... utility bills paid etc. ... ... someone will have to clean that space and maintain the heating and airconditioning.... make sure all the utilities are in working order..... and in most commuities there are laws stating that a building has to pass some kind of safety code..... all these things, and probably many more i haven;t even thought of, require either a collection of money or that the church has some kind of monetary income to cover them all.... .... and unless it;s an extrememly small church where a pastor could handle all that himself then he is going to hire people to oversee and manage those jobs and issues for him..... ..and if the church is big enough and has a large number of ministries some of those people he hires will have to be full time...... .. ... ... i don;t see it as a problem as long as the church remains a true church focused on serving God.......

  
  I think your last sentence is the really issue. I agree with you for the most part and I want to agree with most all of what you wrote. I think it is logically reasonable. However, history really tells us this isn't possible in the context of your last statement.
  
  Historically, the early church was largely a volunteer organization. They lived largely by having a "job" or "livelihood" to support themselves. Those that did live "of the ministry" did so by very modest means. Largely just accepting what others gave them. Not questioning what they received. This set forth in the teachings of Jesus. 
  
  Luke 10:7  And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
  Luke 10:8  And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 
  
  After the surge of the early church, there were those who soon saw the movement as a means of profit. One of the earliest witnesses to this fact is found in the story of Simon. 
  
  Act 8:19  Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 
  Act 8:20  But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 
  Act 8:21  Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 
  Act 8:22  Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 
  Act 8:23  For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 
  
  Peter's reaction was swift and forceful. There is very little doubt that Simon wasn't the only one making such requests. 
  
  I wish it could be different, but humanity seems to ruin everything. The idea of a Utopian local assembly that honestly deals with money is just that.  A dream. There is no wonder the old adage inspired by the Bible.... "money is the root of all evil". Which we know its really the "love of money"..... I've often found it difficult to make the separation in the adage. Those that have money, want more. Those that don't have it.... like "James" said are often "rich in faith"..... Which kinda adds up to "money is the root of all evil".
  
  I have nothing against someone that honestly deals with money while keeping the sense of the Scriptures ever on their mind. Donations are best and never demand someone give you something.... and don't tell someone that God is going to "open the windows of heaven" to those that "sow" into your ministry. Which pretty much disqualifies 99 percent of all ministries. 
  
  Many teach that a minister should be destitute. I don't believe that is necessary. Above all. They should be dedicated to the Body of Christ. I think the Scriptures are clear. I think its best if people get a job and support themselves. The early church did it. The apostles did it. They all lived honest, meaningful lives doing just that.....
  
  Most ministries today are noting more than a business masquerading as non-profit all in the "name" of Christ. 
  
  I'd love to say there are many ministries that are all about serving God. That's just not the case. 
  
  How many apostles lived like the modern "minister" today? How many ministers live like Jesus or His disciples? Jesus could have started a pyramid scheme and demanded all subsequent disciples support their leaders. He didn't. 
  
  Given all the above and more, I've come to believe that its best for ministers to have their own livelihoods where possible and not burden the church with their needs. This the "best" of both worlds. The minister gets the monies he should get and others are still helped. If the full-time need is overwhelming, then that same minister should expect to be modestly supported and not demand others live to support them. 
  
  Lets me honest, how many ministers will follow these words? 1Ti 6:8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 
  
  I know that hurts. The Truth often does. I've tried once in my life to go "full time" in the ministry. I know what its like to some degree. I could have taken "short cuts".....handled things differently. I could have done what some do. Start preaching on money, writing books, and quote a few verses out of context. I didn't. I got a job. I think it would do most ministers good to do just that. Get a job. Don't carnalize important things.

• RE: Money and Ministry

  lnf > 08-08-2017, 09:19 PM

  praise yeshua, I read all you wrote. I really do respect your opinion on the matter.
  
  As far as MY church, I don't believe that we act as a "profit center". Of course, you might disagree, and you might even think I am somewhat blinded, considering that I draw a portion of my salary from tithes/offerings and a (larger) portion for my financial/regulatory oversight of the school, which is funded solely by tuition.
  
  As for the church side of things, the payroll is not the largest of our expenditures. The lion's share of the church budget goes into ministry endeavors and facilities maintenance. We have a decent sized campus. I know, I know...some folks think churches/ministries waste a bunch of money on buildings. If you are of that belief, you have me there...but without our facilities, we would not have a Christian school. It is the only K5-12 Christian school within a 30-mile radius... And if you could see our student body, you would understand why I have such a burden for our school ministry... We are the only stability that some of our students have. You see, our school is an outreach ministry. Many of our families are not saved...but many come to Christ through their children enrolled in our school. In fact, I am one of them! My husband and I enrolled our son into the school because he was having trouble in the public school. We weren't church-goers, so we couldn't get the pastoral statement signed (which I found out later is not an enrollment-killer). Anyway, I decided to attend the church to fulfill what I thought was an enrollment requirement. I did not want to hinder my child from this new opportunity. That is how I entered (what became) my church on that first day...the last Sunday of February, 2004. I went in to make a "sacrifice" for my son's education and went out knowing that God used my son to get me into that church! Pretty much, the rest is history. Four months later, I was baptized. I started my first day as the school's Finance Director on the one-year anniversary of my baptism.
  
  As for the school, payroll is about 2/3 of their budget, but they also employ enough teachers and support staff to manage a K5-12 school. As far as the school is concerned, I am of the opinion that the split is equitable, considering that our "product" is knowledge/learning and not "merchandise". No one is getting rich. In fact, we pay our teachers about half of what they could make at a public school. Curiously enough (Godly enough!), we have very little staff turnover, although those that do leave us usually do so for economic reasons. I understand that, because I (as you suspected) make much less than I would in the private sector for what I do. I can "afford" to work for my church/school only because God has made other provision for me. I draw a monthly pension from my deceased husband's employer. This pays the lion's share of my expenses. My salary provides home/car repairs (without depleting my savings), entertainment, health insurance, and help for my aged mother and my underemployed son, including my two awesome grandchildren!
  
  I looked it up. Our Pastor, supported by the church, earns slightly over the average salary in our area. He's been with us for 17 years. He lives in a modest home (which he and his lovely wife bought 17 years ago) and drives a 10-year old car. I've received more raises in salary than he has, tracking back to 2010, when I became the Finance Director for both the church and the school and became privy to that sort of information.
  
  I respect your opinion and your experience, but I have to say that you seem somewhat jaded to me. I'm sorry that you haven't had a good experience with the churches you have been associated with. My experience (yep...an experience of one church!) seems to be miles apart from yours.
  
  Back to the OP and your scripture reference, "a laborer is worthy of his hire", I really don't understand your "blanket" disagreement. Yes, I know that some churches/ministries are predatory...and the "hire" they request/demand is hurtful to the Body of Christ. That is not right and is contrary to other scripture. But not all churches/ministries are like that. As far as a book written by a Pastor and sold for "profit", I really don't understand why you find that offensive. I can buy any book I like, and am happy to pay the price if I am really interested. Why cannot a Pastor charge for a book? You really don't know what he does with the funds. Perhaps he invests it in ministry or missions. And, even if he put the funds into his own pocket, so what?
  
  And what about the Bible? Every time I've "acquired" a Bible, I had to PAY someone for it. According to how I interpret the OP, shouldn't all Bibles be free for all people?

• RE: Money and Ministry

  praise_yeshua > 08-09-2017, 01:03 AM

  (08-08-2017, 09:19 PM)lnf Wrote: praise yeshua, I read all you wrote.  I really do respect your opinion on the matter.  

  
  As I do yours. I appreciate your candor and sharing your experience!
  
  

  Quote:As far as MY church, I don't believe that we act as a "profit center".  Of course, you might disagree, and you might even think I am somewhat blinded, considering that I draw a portion of my salary from tithes/offerings and a (larger) portion for my financial/regulatory oversight of the school, which is funded solely by tuition.

  
  Would the school exist without the church system supporting it?
  
  

  Quote:As for the church side of things, the payroll is not the largest of our expenditures.  The lion's share of the church budget goes into ministry endeavors and facilities maintenance.  We have a decent sized campus.  I know, I know...some folks think churches/ministries waste a bunch of money on buildings.

  
  
  Some do. Some don't. I'm against extravagant spending of a non-profit regardless
  
  

  Quote:If you are of that belief, you have me there...but without our facilities, we would not have a Christian school.  It is the only K5-12 Christian school within a 30-mile radius...  And if you could see our student body, you would understand why I have such a burden for our school ministry... We are the only stability that some of our students have.  You see, our school is an outreach ministry.  Many of our families are not saved...but many come to Christ through their children enrolled in our school.  In fact, I am one of them!

  
  
  I'm fond of the things that resulted in my salvation experience too. I love the people and the circumstances. I soon found out that you can't be so fond of things that you ignore the inherent issues with those very same things. I had, I would have never grown past those before me. None of us would. We can't base our decisions solely based on the good that comes out of them. Jesus didn't operate this way. At every turn, He challenged accepted wisdom. If Jesus had of accepted the good that came out this worlds circumstances, He wouldn't have died to change everything.
  
  

  Quote:My husband and I enrolled our son into the school because he was having trouble in the public school.  We weren't church-goers, so we couldn't get the pastoral statement signed (which I found out later is not an enrollment-killer).  Anyway, I decided to attend the church to fulfill what I thought was an enrollment requirement.  I did not want to hinder my child from this new opportunity.  That is how I entered (what became) my church on that first day...the last Sunday of February, 2004.  I went in to make a "sacrifice" for my son's education and went out knowing that God used my son to get me into that church!  Pretty much, the rest is history.  Four months later, I was baptized. I started my first day as the school's Finance Director on the one-year anniversary of my baptism.  

  
  I was saved because a man and his wife, who later became my dear friends, showed a poor, outcast young teenager.... love. They came by every Sunday morning for a very long time and picked me up and took me to church. He was the young adult Sunday school teacher and deacon in the church. I eventually got saved. We spent many a good time together. I love them dearly. We no longer have the relationship we once had. I had to make a choice. I had to decide if the truth was more important than anything. I spent many an agonizing year weighing the choices. I ultimately chose to embrace the truth.
  
  

  Quote:As for the school, payroll is about 2/3 of their budget, but they also employ enough teachers and support staff to manage a K5-12 school.  As far as the school is concerned, I am of the opinion that the split is equitable, considering that our "product" is knowledge/learning and not "merchandise".  No one is getting rich. In fact, we pay our teachers about half of what they could make at a public school.

   
  
  I realize this. Often these people accept that they are doing God a service by accepting a lower salary to do good in their community. I have family members that do the exact same things. Exactly. In fact, their family suffers for their actions.
  
  This going to hurt and I'm not trying to be offensive... but.... the truth is the truth...
  
  Parents are responsible for their children. Christian School can't take the place of this. We often place blame WITHOUT taking responsibility. I choose to send my kids to public school because I saw others denying their children a place in this world. Sooner or later, children have to learn to live among others that disagree with them. Its a challenge. I know. Yet, its a challenge that must be faced head on. You can't keep this society away from your children. You have to train them to handle it.
  
  

  Quote:Curiously enough (Godly enough!), we have very little staff turnover, although those that do leave us usually do so for economic reasons.  I understand that, because I (as you suspected) make much less than I would in the private sector for what I do.  I can "afford" to work for my church/school only because God has made other provision for me.  I draw a monthly pension from my deceased husband's employer.  This pays the lion's share of my expenses.  My salary provides home/car repairs (without depleting my savings), entertainment, health insurance, and help for my aged mother and my underemployed son, including my two awesome grandchildren!

  
  I'm glad you have this opportunity. I'm not asking you to change anything. I'm just asking you to see the truth. Let the truth "simmer" in your life.
  
  

  Quote:I looked it up.  Our Pastor, supported by the church, earns slightly over the average salary in our area.  He's been with us for 17 years.  He lives in a modest home (which he and his lovely wife bought 17 years ago) and drives a 10-year old car.  I've received more raises in salary than he has, tracking back to 2010, when I became the Finance Director for both the church and the school and became privy to that sort of information.

  
  There are plenty of good people doing their best where they are at. I'm just saying if it was different. If it was really different based on the truth of the Scriptures.... there would be a TON more BETTER than what we are seeing. We are settling for mediocrity.
  
  

  Quote:I respect your opinion and your experience, but I have to say that you seem somewhat jaded to me.  I'm sorry that you haven't had a good experience with the churches you have been associated with.  My experience (yep...an experience of one church!) seems to be miles apart from yours.

  
  I know you're genuinely concerned sister. I know you are. I can see it in your words. I've heard this very thing many times in my life. Over and over again. Its okay sister. I'm fine. I'm not injured or jaded. My experience hasn't ruined me. The Truth has.
  

  ---

  Inf wrote,
  
  

  Quote:Back to the OP and your scripture reference, "a laborer is worthy of his hire", I really don't understand your "blanket" disagreement.  Yes, I know that some churches/ministries are predatory...and the "hire" they request/demand is hurtful to the Body of Christ.  That is not right and is contrary to other scripture.
   But not all churches/ministries are like that.

  
  The preaching of the tithe is predatory and I only know of a few that don't preach it. The vast majority do it. Some KNOW better. In fact, I've had them tell me they know better but they also know that if they change, they will be rejected. They will lose their job and be run out of the ministry. They will lose their revival meetings and all their friends. I've told them before, they really aren't ready to do what it takes to preach the truth. It really does amaze me. These same preachers.... preach over and over and over and over about how Jesus was rejected by everyone. How the apostles died for what they believed. How the early church abandoned the apostles..... Yet they all have plenty of friends inviting them for revival services..... Something just doesn't line up....
  
   

  Quote:As far as a book written by a Pastor and sold for "profit", I really don't understand why you find that offensive.  I can buy any book I like, and am happy to pay the price if I am really interested.  Why cannot a Pastor charge for a book?  You really don't know what he does with the funds.  Perhaps he invests it in ministry or missions.  And, even if he put the funds into his own pocket, so what?  

  
  Show me one example of this practice in the Scriptures? Just one example. They didn't charge for their wisdom. They didn't put a price tag on their efforts.
  
  Sure. People can often afford it.... but that's not the issue. Its about profiting from the Gospel. I gave several examples from the Scriptures. I'm willing to accept evidence from the Scriptures. Please share any you have.
  
  

  Quote:And what about the Bible?  Every time I've "acquired" a Bible, I had to PAY someone for it.  According to how I interpret the OP, shouldn't all Bibles be free for all people?

  
  That's a good question. A very good question. Publishers are generally the one's that get paid from publishing various Bibles. The penmen/writers of the Scriptures haven't gotten paid that I'm aware of. Eternally maybe...
  
  I generally use freely available electronic editions of religious materials. Its been years since I purchased a printed edition of any Bible. I did buy a NET printed edition for a friend not long after it was published.
  
  The internet has created a situation in-which most anything can be published and shared without the need for a vast amounts of money. I recommend that all ministers freely publish their books online for everyone to consume and profit from without taking one thought of how they might profit from it....
  
  Thanks for the conversation Inf. I hope I've been clear in what I've written. I look forward to our continued conversation. God Bless you always!

• RE: Money and Ministry

  lnf > 08-10-2017, 12:55 AM

  I appreciate your response.  I'll try to respond line by line.  
  
  Question:  Would the school exist without the church system supporting it?  Answer:  The school is self-funded, except for facilities rent.  We do not charge the school any rent for the use of our facilities.  We maximize the use of our facilities.  We share resources.  In other words, school classrooms are also used for Sunday School and mid-week services.  
  
  Otherwise, the school pays all their direct costs, including payroll, books, student liability/catastrophic insurance, sports programs, etc.  They pay a proportionate share of the liability insurance, vehicle insurance, workers comp, electricity, telephone, water, janitorial services, etc.
  
  To reiterate, the only customary expense the school does not have is rent of our facilities.  Could they pay the rent for a facility?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  I really haven't analyzed their budget for that particular expense.  But I do know that we write off about 10% of our annual tuition to allow needy families who do not qualify for state scholarships to attend our school (a function of our outreach ministry), which would definitely cover customary rental costs in our area, and I also know that the school does not in any way draw from church offerings.
  
  Statement: You are against extravagant spending of a non-profit.  Answer:  So are we.  Although I will not share our budget information here, I can attest that neither the church nor the school spends extravagantly.  This is my bailiwick, so if you trust me, you can trust my statement!  In fact, our long-term goal is to set aside enough funds to operate each of our ministries for an entire year without a single penny of income, in the event the economy crashes.  This means that we set aside a portion of offerings/tuition for future use.  This is a long-term goal, one we have not achieved as of yet, but we're working on it.
  
  You speak of "inherent issues" and "following truth", but you do not give enough information for me to respond.
  
  Statement: Often these people accept that they are doing God a service by accepting a lower salary to do good in their community. I have family members that do the exact same things. Exactly. In fact, their family suffers for their actions.  Parents are responsible for their children. Christian School can't take the place of this. We often place blame WITHOUT taking responsibility. I choose to send my kids to public school because I saw others denying their children a place in this world. Sooner or later, children have to learn to live among others that disagree with them. Its a challenge. I know. Yet, its a challenge that must be faced head on. You can't keep this society away from your children. You have to train them to handle it.
  
  Response:  It seems to me that you are against Christian school, for the reason that it prevents children from learning how to interact in the world outside of the "church bubble"...and that you think that a family who takes a lesser salary to work in Christian School ministry robs their children of a "normal" livelihood ...  I'm not sure how to respond to this. I can understand how you might think that attending a Christian school might not prepare a child for the world after graduation (and there are studies to support this thinking), but doesn't this fall upon each individual school and parents?  Some schools might do better/worse to prepare their students for the world, but the parents have a responsibility, too...  Just as parents of public school children need to ameliorate the teachings in the public school to their spiritual beliefs, might Christian school parents need to counsel their children about the pitfalls of the world?  And as far as salary is concerned, many people earn different salaries and raise their families within that parameter.  I do not see where taking a lesser salary to work in ministry is any different than the pay scales of "worldly" professions.
  
  Statements:  truth and mediocrity.  Responses: not enough information to respond.
  
  Statement:  the preaching of the tithe.  Response:  Pass.  I'll only say that I understand that the preaching of the tithe is controversial.  As for myself, I give 10% of my income and more as Holy Spirit leads me.  I am happy and blessed in my giving.  I do not think it robs me or my family of necessary income.  We are well taken care of by God's grace.
  
  Statement:  Pastor-written books.  Response: We will have to agree to disagree.  I fall on the labourer is worthy of his hire.  You do not.
  
  Statement:  free electronic Bibles.  Response:  Yes, I often use electronic Bibles in my studies, but I still prefer a Bible (or a secular book) that I can hold in my hands.  It's a matter of preference.

• RE: Money and Ministry

  praise_yeshua > 08-11-2017, 11:42 PM

  (08-10-2017, 12:55 AM)lnf Wrote: Answer:  The school is self-funded, except for facilities rent.  We do not charge the school any rent for the use of our facilities.  We maximize the use of our facilities.  We share resources.  In other words, school classrooms are also used for Sunday School and mid-week services.  
  
  Otherwise, the school pays all their direct costs, including payroll, books, student liability/catastrophic insurance, sports programs, etc.  They pay a proportionate share of the liability insurance, vehicle insurance, workers comp, electricity, telephone, water, janitorial services, etc.
  
  To reiterate, the only customary expense the school does not have is rent of our facilities.  Could they pay the rent for a facility?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  I really haven't analyzed their budget for that particular expense.  But I do know that we write off about 10% of our annual tuition to allow needy families who do not qualify for state scholarships to attend our school (a function of our outreach ministry), which would definitely cover customary rental costs in our area, and I also know that the school does not in any way draw from church offerings.

  
  I'd say your assembly has taken care to deal very ethically with its resources. I was thinking more along the lines of the school being a "faith based" institution. Without the "faith of the church". It probably would not exist. I'm thinking its more over a outreach of your local assembly.
  
  

  Quote:Statement: You are against extravagant spending of a non-profit.  Answer:  So are we.  Although I will not share our budget information here, I can attest that neither the church nor the school spends extravagantly.  This is my bailiwick, so if you trust me, you can trust my statement!  In fact, our long-term goal is to set aside enough funds to operate each of our ministries for an entire year without a single penny of income, in the event the economy crashes.  This means that we set aside a portion of offerings/tuition for future use.  This is a long-term goal, one we have not achieved as of yet, but we're working on it.

  
  I'm thinking it shouldn't be a "faith based non-profit". I'm glad that it operates largely independently of your local assembly. I just can't see it not being largely based on system of giving that has no merit in the NT church. If it could operate completely independent of the "tithe" system. I have no problem with if that is what you choose to do. I think there are better choices to be made. I can't choose for people and I'm not going to try. I can't choose for myself many times.
  
  

  Quote:You speak of "inherent issues" and "following truth", but you do not give enough information for me to respond.

  
  I ramble at times. I can't remember what those might be or I would try to define them for you. If I think of them, I'll update.
  
  

  Quote:Response:  It seems to me that you are against Christian school, for the reason that it prevents children from learning how to interact in the world outside of the "church bubble"...and that you think that a family who takes a lesser salary to work in Christian School ministry robs their children of a "normal" livelihood ...  I'm not sure how to respond to this. I can understand how you might think that attending a Christian school might not prepare a child for the world after graduation (and there are studies to support this thinking), but doesn't this fall upon each individual school and parents?  Some schools might do better/worse to prepare their students for the world, but the parents have a responsibility, too...  Just as parents of public school children need to ameliorate the teachings in the public school to their spiritual beliefs, might Christian school parents need to counsel their children about the pitfalls of the world?  And as far as salary is concerned, many people earn different salaries and raise their families within that parameter.  I do not see where taking a lesser salary to work in ministry is any different than the pay scales of "worldly" professions.

  
  I imagine your right. I am generally against the idea of a non-profit Christian school. I understand the desire. Maybe in the context of a non-profit charter school that is able to solely sustain itself independently of the false doctrine of the "tithe system". People can do whatever they choose to do with their money, just don't bring the false doctrine of the tithe into the "process".
  
  As far as salaries are concerned, I was just making the point that people who work with these types of systems are expected/encouraged to live sacrificial lives to serve the product of their "faith". These "God jobs".... for lack of a better term.... that are supposed to be associated with the very hand of God in ministering to society. Many of these "God jobs" rob their participants of the monies they could use for their own families. I trust you. I ask that you trust me, there are MANY MANY times this happens in the context of "Christian schools" and "Church Ministries".
  
  I believe these same people could get a secular job and make much more money and not lose..... anything. You see yourselves as doing "God's work" at your "God job". I'm just not totally buying it. The false doctrine of the "tithe" is sold by such thinking. We need to do all these wonderful things with "God's money".......
  
  Many of these "wonderful things" are nothing more than the empires and wishes of humanity. Yes. They do good.... but so did the Temple. God destroyed the Temple because it became a "den of thieves". Which is pretty much what many modern church assemblies have become. Not all, but certainly most.
  
  

  Quote:Statement:  the preaching of the tithe.  Response:  Pass.  I'll only say that I understand that the preaching of the tithe is controversial.  As for myself, I give 10% of my income and more as Holy Spirit leads me.  I am happy and blessed in my giving.  I do not think it robs me or my family of necessary income.  We are well taken care of by God's grace.

  
  You shouldn't pass.....
  
  Its not difficult to understand and you're not avoiding it because its controversial. I bet I can talk you out of your belief in the tithe. Lets do a quick question and answer session. I'll start with one simple question that branches a little....
  
  Jesus told Pharisees to not to forget to "tithe".
  
  Luk 11:42  But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 
  
  Now, just how do you tithe like Jesus told the Pharisee to tithe?
  
  The Temple is gone. No storehouse to bring the "tithe to". The Leviticus Priesthood is gone. They are one's who received the tithe.
  
  Just how can you tithe likes Jesus told them to tithe?
  
  If you can't, Then show me where anyone, at anytime, in the Scriptures, changed what Jesus said?
  
  

  Quote:Response: We will have to agree to disagree.  I fall on the labourer is worthy of his hire.  You do not.

  
  They are charging for something they say God gave them.... for others to receive. Did God only intend for those with monies to buy......to receive what they are passing on from the hand of God?
  
  

  Quote:Yes, I often use electronic Bibles in my studies, but I still prefer a Bible (or a secular book) that I can hold in my hands.  It's a matter of preference.

  
  OK. I can accept that. Maybe we can get the Gideons to start buying all these books "pastors" and "teachers" are producing today...... so they can get them into the hands of those people God wanted to have them....
  
  Just being playful....
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